Brian Joubert Discussion Group



 
PortalHomeFAQSearchRegisterUsergroupsLog inFacebookTwitter

Share | 
 

 Spins :)

View previous topic View next topic Go down 
Go to page : 1, 2  Next
AuthorMessage
Gislaine
The Boss
avatar

Number of posts : 13307
Localisation : Lyon ,France
Registration date : 2006-06-10

PostSubject: Spins :)   13.06.06 19:27

Author Comment
Love2Smile
Member
Posts: 713
(7/17/05 1:42 am)
| Edit | Del All Spins Smile
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Spins, incase you hadn't noticed, are very high on my favorite "to-do" list...

First:
As I posted in the "how do they do that" thread, the skate blade is not flat to the ice. It curves, and the highest point is under the ball of the foot, just below the toe-pick. As we do 3-turns on this ballance point/area of the blade, it is also the point on which we ballance over while doing spins.

~Love2Smile! (...and Love2Spin!! )

Katya0812
Administrator
Posts: 2173
(7/17/05 12:00 pm)
| Edit | Del
ezSupporter

Re: Spins Smile
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Can you explain what happens if you are too far forward or not far enough forward on the curve of the blade Heidi?
~Katya

Ninchen85
Member
Posts: 404
(7/17/05 12:44 pm)
| Edit | Del Re: Spins Smile
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thank you all for doing this, it's very interesting!!!

Can you maybe explain the different types of spins?

Nina

Edited by: Ninchen85 at: 7/17/05 1:40 pm

Love2Smile
Member
Posts: 714
(7/17/05 6:39 pm)
| Edit | Del Re: Spins Smile
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Katya,
If you are too far forward on the blade you end up spinning on the toe-pick, and that generally makes you tip over in some kind of way.
If you are too far back, your blade can get "stuck" in the ice somewhat as you are trying to spin around. Or, it can make you go on the incorrect edge for the spin. You could also fall backwards.

While doing a forward spin, for counter-clockwise, or "normal" rotators, you are spinning on the left foot back inside edge. In a back spin, a counter-clockwise rotator spins on the right foot back outside edge. But key is being balanced over the ball of the foot...

When doing a camel spin that changes edges, the skater is first spinning on the ball of the foot and on the left inside edge. Then the skater does a little 3-turn on the heel (since the left inside edge is technically travelling backwards, and all backward to forward 3-turns must be turned with the ballance/body weight over the heel of the blade) and ends up spinning on the forward outside edge, balanced back on the blade.

Sure Nina! I'll start by simply explaining positions and names:

Scratch spin: the skater spins with arms and free leg out at first, then brings the freeleg heel accross the skating knee and arms in. The free leg then proceeds to "scratch" down the skating leg until a tight rotational position is reached. Because of such a tight body position (all the limbs close to the body), this spin can get incredibly fast. It used to be used all the time at the ends of programs, for dramatic affect, since it can get so fast. When centered well it looks really impressive. At the senior level that you see on TV though, it really isn't worth anything as far as points go.

Camel spin: The skater is in a spiral or arabesque position while spinning. But the whole idea is to create a good body line with an arched back... So why on earth they call it a "camel spin" is beyond me, since we don't want any humps in that position!

Sit spin: The skater spins low to the ice by bending his/her skating leg at the knee and ankle, "sitting" as low as possible, keeping the chest over the skating knee, and the free leg is extended in front.

Layback spin : The skater spins with an arched back, head back and looking up towards the ceiling. Usually with an "attitude position" with the free leg (where the leg is up and behind the skaters body, knee and foot in open position, stretching up toward the head), but now there's the trend of keeping the freeleg down by the other leg, which I don't think looks nearly as pretty as the traditional position...
A weird thing is, for some reason it seems to me that USA ladies are always the best at this spin, as far as position is concerned... Best layback ladies on the planet (that I have seen, anyway) IMO are Sasha Cohen and Sarah Hughes! They are in the totally classic, beautiful layback position.

Side leaning spin: Similar to a layback, but the skater leans to the side instead of just straight back. Usually the free leg is straight and extended to the side (the same side as upper body is leaning).

Donut spin: Shizuka does this one often. Usually performed after the camel position, the skater holds the free foot blade and arches the back so the head practically touches the blade. The skaters' side faces upward, and the position is parallel to the ice.

Beilmann: (I'm not totally sure if I spelled that correctly...) Irina Slutskya does this one often. She grabs the blade of her free leg foot, then pulls the foot up above her head, arches the back, and holds the foot up in that position with both hands.

I must sign off for now...

~Love2Smile!



Ninchen85
Member
Posts: 408
(7/18/05 8:36 am)
| Edit | Del Re: Spins Smile
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thanks so much for all these explanations Heidi

Nevertheless, I have one more question:
What is the difference between "sit spin" and "back sit spin"?
I've often heard these two expressions while watching American skating telecast and couldn't find the difference...


Nina

SheenaVivien
Member
Posts: 597
(7/18/05 9:50 am)
| Edit | Del Re: Spins Smile
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Katya - I was going be humourous & say that if you were too far back or forward on the blade while spinning, you would end up adding to your interesting collection of bruises!! (but Heidi explained it much better!)

A "scratch-spin" can also be called a "corkscrew", that is what my coach calls it.

Nina, as far as I know a sit spin is done on your natural foot & then when you change feet it becomes a back sit spin because it changes edge also - Heidi can correct or confirm!?!

Sheena

Ninchen85
Member
Posts: 409
(7/18/05 9:54 am)
| Edit | Del Re: Spins Smile
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thank you

I had the same idea but I thought it has to be something more!

Nina

Katya0812
Administrator
Posts: 2175
(7/18/05 11:02 am)
| Edit | Del
ezSupporter

Re: Spins Smile
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
LOL Sheena, I know that if you are too far back on your blade the spin will be very slow and will probably travel, I was just hoping Heidi could give a better technical explanation.

The difference between a forward sit spin and a back sit spin is the edge used. Most "counterclockwise" skaters will use an inside edge so the body rotates forward in a spin, change the foot and the edge and the body will rotate backward, hence the back spin. Hmmm maybe I should just let Heidi explain it
~Katya

arlingtonian
Video Queen
Posts: 756
(7/18/05 11:24 am)
| Edit | Del
ezSupporter
Re: Spins Smile
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I was just hoping Heidi could give a better technical explanation.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Well, if I could give a better technical explanation, I wouldn't give out the advice for free.

Karen

Katya0812
Administrator
Posts: 2177
(7/18/05 11:31 am)
| Edit | Del
ezSupporter

Re: Spins Smile
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So you are going into coaching Karen? I hear it can pay pretty well, depending on who you work for
~Katya

arlingtonian
Video Queen
Posts: 759
(7/18/05 1:39 pm)
| Edit | Del
ezSupporter
Re: Spins Smile
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

No, most of this is over my head. Probably always will be, too.

Anyone have ice dancing questions? Should I ask Jon & Katrina if they feel like participating, either directly or indirectly? I'll start another topic if there is interest.

In the meantime, spin away! (But I better leave before I get dizzy )

Karen

Love2Smile
Member
Posts: 717
(7/18/05 2:54 pm)
| Edit | Del Re: Spins Smile
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Karen!

All "back spins" (back sit spin, back scratch spin, back camel spin, etc.) are performed on the right foot for a normal rotator, whereas their "forward"/regular spins are performed on the left foot. Actually Katya, they both spin on the edge going backwards, and the difference is indeed the edge but also the change of foot. If you change the edge but don't change the foot, it will be a change-edge spin.

~Love2Smile! Love2Spin!!



Katya0812
Administrator
Posts: 2179
(7/18/05 3:24 pm)
| Edit | Del
ezSupporter

Re: Spins Smile
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A normal (counterclockwise) spinner would do a forward spin on the left back inside edge, and back spin on the right back outside edge .. right?
I was referring to the way the body rotates, forward into a forward spin ... or do I have that one confused also.

Karen, the other moves that were mentioned somewhere else .. counter, rockers, twizzles etc., are more commonly referred to in reference to ice dance, so Jon and Katrina might be the perfect people to ask.
~Katya

Blue Bead
Member
Posts: 299
(7/27/05 7:20 pm)
| Edit | Del Re: Spins Smile
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I was reading the "google group" known as rec.sport.skating.ice.recreational, and a poster there was saying that skaters who finish their forward scratch spins with their arms up find it harder to do it because of shoulder control. What exactly does the postion of the skater's shoulders do for a spin?

Another poster said they could hold a back spin longer with both arms up. Why would that be?

Mary C.

MarjoleinF
Member
Posts: 4
(7/28/05 6:48 am)
| Edit | Del Re: Spins Smile
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I still got troubles with my back spin, but arms are essential.

When you close your arms (pull them in), you gain speed and keep on spinning faster or longer, depending on the time you take to pull in the arms (the quicker you do that, the faster you spin, but the more difficult it is to keep the balance). After that, moving your arms up (above the head) has the same effect, only you loose balance more easily because you are shifting the weight a little.



Love2Smile
Member
Posts: 762
(8/2/05 2:21 am)
| Edit | Del Re: Spins Smile
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm glad you could join us over here, Marjolein!

~Love2Smile!

MAMOUNA38
Administrateur
Posts: 1450
(8/2/05 8:49 am)
| Edit | Del
Re: Spins Smile
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thank you for all these explanations on all the techniques of the skating!!
Heidi ,Sheena...
Gislaine


Edited by: MAMOUNA38 at: 8/2/05 8:50 am

Love2Smile
Member
Posts: 770
(8/3/05 12:41 am)
| Edit | Del Re: Spins Smile
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Gislaine

~Love2Smile!

Blue Bead
Member
Posts: 320
(8/10/05 5:59 pm)
| Edit | Del Re: Spins Smile
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Does the speed at which a skater spins help in any way to prevent dizzyness? How do skaters compensate for the sensation? I would imagine there are various little hidden way of camouflaging that a skater is feeling the effects of dizzyness during a program, LOL. How is that usually hidden?

How does a skater's center of balance affect various spins? I do know that a woman's center of balance is in a different location on the body than tht of a man. What affect does any movements of the shoulders play in controlling the center of balance?

I've notice that there is a slight weight shift if one raises their arms over the head just when standing still off-ice. But what affect does that same shoulder movement have on a skater spinning on the ice? Watching certain skaters perform headless spins fascinates me to know end because there must be a considerable weight shift with the positioning of the skater's head during the spin.

What are some common methods to teach skaters to center their spins?

Mary C.

_________________
allez BJDGbanner


Gislaine
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Gislaine
The Boss
avatar

Number of posts : 13307
Localisation : Lyon ,France
Registration date : 2006-06-10

PostSubject: Re: Spins :)   13.06.06 19:28

Re: Spins Smile
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Dizziness is something a skater simply gets used to with practice... The more you spin and get used to it, the less dizzy you get. When the skater starts to spin faster (after mastering the basics and then increasing his speed as he practices), he has to get used to that new speed as well. Something I've found interesting while coaching is the observation that some skaters get much more dizzy than others for some reason... I don't have any explanation for why that is, though.
If I have a skater that is just beginning to do spins in his/her programs, I choreograph that skater's program to include a little rest-moment right after the spin. The skater can simply stroke or do crossovers, nothing too complicated, until he/she gets his/her bearings back again.

Every body part can affect the ballance of a spin. Often, the positioning of parts requires the counter-ballance of other parts...
I'm going to explain this by using the explanation of a layback spin. If a skater simply leaned backward by arching the back and letting the head and shoulders go back, she would fall backward if she goes to far- it is the same if you try to lean back like that while standing off-ice. Something else has to counter-ballance that lean, to keep the skater's center of ballance over the ball of the foot ("spin spot", as my coach liked to call it). In the case of a layback, the hips must press FORWARD as the back arches and the head goes backward. If the hips do not go forward, it is impossible for the lower back to arch properly, so you either end up with no arch in your back and just your head looking up, or if you go too far back, youd end up falling backwards...
If you drop a shoulder in say, a side leaning spin, the opposite hip presses out to the other side. So, if you are a normal rotator, spinning to the left, and you lean with your right shoulder down, then your left hip presses strongly out to the left side, so that your spinning foot is under your center of ballance.

Negatively speaking, if you drop one shoulder during a scratch spin, it can take you off of your ballance point and possibly make you put your free-foot down.

Yeah, headless spins are pretty wild. The centrifugal force from the spinning really pulls on your head and feels quite odd...

To explain how to center a spin, I really have to start from the beginning- the technique of starting the spin, because that's where it all begins... Like a jump begins on take-off, a spin's centering/lack of centering begins with it's setup.

Since I better go now, I'll have to explain that another day...

Bye for now!

~Love2Smile!!


Katya0812
Administrator
Posts: 2357
(8/11/05 2:25 am)
| Edit | Del
ezSupporter

Re: Spins Smile
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I am gussing that the amount of dizziness is unique to the individual, for instance I remember someone telling me that Todd E. said he has some techniques for handling the dizziness, but Johnny W. has said he doesn't get dizzy
~Katya

_________________
allez BJDGbanner


Gislaine
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Gislaine
The Boss
avatar

Number of posts : 13307
Localisation : Lyon ,France
Registration date : 2006-06-10

PostSubject: Re: Spins :)   13.06.06 19:28

Comment
SheenaVivien
Member
Posts: 703
(8/11/05 10:33 am)
| Edit | Del Re: Spins Smile
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I read that Sonja Henie used to toss her head after a spin to clear it.

Sheena

Blue Bead
Member
Posts: 321
(8/11/05 1:06 pm)
| Edit | Del Re: Spins Smile
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thanks so much, Heidi, for providing the in-depth explanations I so love.

What an interesting little tidbit about Sonja Henie! Thanks Sheena. I'd love to see some old film footage of her just to see if that "head toss" is visable, LOL.

I'm also glad that Katya mentioned that different skaters have different amounts of dizziness or none at all. That was one of my next questions, LOL. Does anyone know how much of the sensation Brian has during his spins or how he deals with/camouflages it during his programs?

One of the misconceptions that I had was spawned by skaters and coaches stating that "you just get used to it." I incorrectly deduced that it meant the dizziness went away completely but I'm getting enlightened LOL. It doesn't necessarily go away but it might lessen in intensity.

Since a female skater's center of balance is lower on the torso than a male's c.o.b., do women learn to control spins earlier than men do---since there c.o.b is higher on their torsos? Or isn't the location of the c.o.b important between men and women skaters?

Mary C.

Love2Smile
Member
Posts: 801
(8/12/05 12:06 am)
| Edit | Del Re: Spins Smile
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hmm, I honestly don't know if either females or males have an easier time learning to control spins, Mary... I've never taught a male skater to freeskate, so I have no observations or information to draw from, personally. Hopefully someone else here knows more about that particular question?

Okeedokee, centering spins...
*I will use all explanations in the context of a normal (counter-clockwise) rotator doing a forward spin. Also, keep in mind that skaters often try to do other unique entries into spins, especially when trying to gain points in the new judging system. Flying spins and back spins that do not begin with a forward spin would need seperate explanations for their entries as well. However, the "twist, then release" movement of the waist to begin the spin applies to all spins, regardless of the entry beginning with a jump, a turn, etc.

*To set up the spin, a skater must twist the waist strongly to the right after either a backward crossover (then pausing/gliding on the back right inside edge) or from a forward to backward right inside 3-turn (then pausing/gliding on the back right outside edge, which is what Brian usually does ). So the skater is now gliding, with the waist strongly twisted to the right. Next, the skater must push forward onto the left foot and press strongly into the left forward outside edge, creating momentum with the push, the waist still twisted to the right at the moment of the step/push. The edge comes around so deeply, as the upper body begins to release the twist and the skating knee rises, that the edge eventually curls into a 3-turn that begins the spin, which spins on the left back inside edge of the ball of the foot.

The action of pushing onto that strong left forward outside edge, then releasing that twist (waist un-twisting and ending more square over the hips as the spin begins to spin) are the motions that begin the momentum for a spin.

Now that you hopefully, if I explained it well, understand the mechanics of a spin, the factors involved with performing a centered or not-centered spin include...

--The timing of the upper body:
did it release with perfect timing in relation to the rising of the skating knee? Or did it release too soon? The latter can cause travelling.

--The timing of the skating knee as it rises:
did it straighten too quickly in relation to the upper body motion? Or did it rise evenly as it rode the edge, to keep the ballance even with the upper body? If the knee straightens too soon, that can cause travelling or lack of ballance as well. A good example of this (though you rarely see the experienced competitors on tv do this ) is when you see a skater go into a camel spin, and then "pop" it. The skater straightened the knee too quickly in relation to the upper body's timing, and it caused him/her to "pop" up or jump right off of the ballance point (or, in any case, there's always the possibility that the skater never twisted the waist enough or bent the knee enough in the first place as he/she entered the spin, and thus didn't have the right positions to work with from the beginning...). The spin is still saveable if that happens, but you see the ballance drop back down to regain ballance, and then the spin proceeds at less speed than it would have if things had gone smoothly.

--The overall balance of the body:
Is the back hunched or strongly arched? Are the shoulders level? Is the free hip level? Is the skater ballanced over the correct part of the blade? All of these things can affect the spin and it's centering.

There you have it, a crash-course on the mechanics of spins...

~Love2Smile!! Love2Spin!!
(aka Heidi )

--edited because I'm not entirely sure about my gymnastics comparison, and since I'm no gymnast, I want to be sure my facts/comparisons are correct before using it as an example...

Edited by: Love2Smile at: 8/13/05 10:48 pm

SheenaVivien
Member
Posts: 713
(8/12/05 5:44 am)
| Edit | Del Re: Spins Smile
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm no coach or expert or anything but I think that exceptional spinning is an individual gift or talent. People like Krieg & Ruh have superb spins but weaker jumps or Lambiel (whose jumps are inconsistent, his spins are very fast but not well centred). Neil Wilson from Belfast was the 1st male "super-spinner", I well remember the audience reaction to him at Edmonton Worlds in 1996 - they were dazzled! Sometimes it took him a while to master a jump (eg. axel - a few years to get it clean) but he was usually consistent once he 'got it' - spins were his metier though! He was just unlucky to be in an era when jumps were all - it is a shame he retired before CoP came in.....

Having said that - certain coaches seem to be able to teach good spinning. I noticed on my only visit to British Championships that the standard of spinning generally was less than what was taught at Dundonald Ice Bowl - most of our youngsters 'spun' fairly well (though not all up to Neil's standard!)

Sheena

Blue Bead
Member
Posts: 330
(8/14/05 6:30 pm)
| Edit | Del Re: Spins Smile
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Heidi....Thanks so much for your explanation of spinning basics. I understand the process much better than I did and it helps me understand better some of the more in-depth material I'm been finding lately on the subject.

Regarding that balance point, how does a skater know when they're hit that "sweet spot" on the blade during any spin? Is there a specific sensation to be felt when it's found? Where is that precise balance point located on the blade?

Here's a site I find quite interesting because it is a journal kept by a recreational skater who has been actively studying the fine art of figure skating for several years. She goes into a lot of detail on her failures and successes in the process of learning and perfecting her techniques.
www.skatejournal.com/journalindex.html

Mary C.

Love2Smile
Member
Posts: 817
(8/15/05 12:09 am)
| Edit | Del Re: Spins Smile
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You're welcome Mary!

As far as knowing when you're balanced over that "sweet spot", you feel that your blade is spinning effortlessly, with no draging sensation. You can somewhat feel the heel of the blade being lifted slightly. The balance point is located at the curve of the blade where the front end begins to curve upward to the toe-pick. This point is higher off the ice than the furthest point of the heel, so that you can "rock" forward to it.

Hopefully that is helpful, as well.

~Love2Smile!

_________________
allez BJDGbanner


Gislaine
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Gislaine
The Boss
avatar

Number of posts : 13307
Localisation : Lyon ,France
Registration date : 2006-06-10

PostSubject: Re: Spins :)   13.06.06 19:29

Spins Smile
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
After a long absense, LOL, I have yet another question.

What causes a spin to travel, and how does the skater correct that?

Mary C.

SheenaVivien
Member
Posts: 899
(10/1/05 3:38 pm)
| Edit | Del Re: Spins Smile
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I know that not holding a long enough outside edge into a spin will cause it to travel (solution is - suprisingly!! - to hold it for longer).

I'm sure Heidi will know any other causes.

Sheena

Love2Smile
Member
Posts: 970
(10/4/05 1:41 am)
| Edit | Del Re: Spins Smile
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hey there, Mary and Sheena! I was wondering where you were, lol!

In answer to your question, please see my post on this page from the date 8-12-05...
Overall, it's all about having good body positioning (ballance and stretch, all body parts positioned where they are supposed to be in relation to eachother) throughout all stages of a spin (set-up, entry, spin, and exit) to create a well centered, well ballanced, pleasing to the eye spin.

Yes, that is true, Sheena.
Also, if you don't mind me clarifying that further... :
How "long" you hold the edge is relative to the speed at which you are accelerating around the curve, i.e., how long it takes to come around the curve enough to get into the 3-turn that begins the spin... There's no specific amount of "time", per say, for you to hold the edge, and it may go "faster" for a skater who pushes more powerfully into the spin, in comparison to a less powerful skater (who didn't push as strongly into the edge that starts the spin) who has to "wait" longer (time-wise) on the edge to get around enough to start the spin.

Hopefully that all makes sense...

lol, today while skating, I finally realized why I wasn't rotating as well in my camel spin as I should be (I was dropping out of the camel position slightly during the start of the spin, thus slowing down the spin momentum). When I focused on keeping my right side and arm better supported / stretched / lifted during the entry, the spin went perfectly. So, that tells me I must not have been keeping my right side "up" enough on my previous attempts at the spin.

That's an illustration of what it is like to practice an element and fix things by feeling / focusing on certain aspects of that element. If your solution fixes the problem, then you try and remember it for the next times you practice that element, until you don't have to think about it anymore and the element goes smoothly again with less thought and mental energy.

Often, even when you physically and mentally know how to do something, your body can come up with all kinds of little errors that you aren't trying to have it do, but it just sort of does... Then you feel perplexed as to why your body is giving you difficulties when you KNOW you can do, for example, a camel spin... That's what keeps us skaters practicing and working, lol!

~Love2Smile! Love2SKATE!!





Edited by: Love2Smile at: 10/4/05 1:45 am

SheenaVivien
Member
Posts: 912
(10/4/05 9:09 am)
| Edit | Del Re: Spins Smile
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thanks Heidi, as you say it is really holding a good, deep edge before the 3 turn entry that helps centre a spin. (as opposed to a flat scrapey pretence of a 3 turn, like what I would usually do!!) I think about it being 'longer' as I would be trying to hold it for longer in order to get a deeper edge??!!??

Skating is great, you can happily & successfully do an element for years - & then suddenly it goes! Just like your camel spin - well done for figuring it out!

Sheena

Blue Bead
Member
Posts: 415
(10/4/05 11:47 am)
| Edit | Del Re: Spins Smile
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thanks so much for the explanation, Heidi. As to "where" I've been because this thread has been a little on the dead side as of late,LOL, I've been doing a lot of writing and developing backstory in particular for several characters. Skating technique is not the only thing on my research list, LOL.

When you are in the process of doing any element, especially one which requires some speed---spin, jumps, etc.---do you recognize that you've messed it up immediately, by sense of feel, and know at that moment what went wrong or is it something which gets recognized afterward as you go over in your mind and retrace your movements then? I'm curious as to how, after many camel spins, it occured to you what was wrong. Why did you feel something was amiss at that point yet not pick up the sensation earlier?

I can relate to the idea of keeping track of so many physical sensations going on at once as you are learning an element, and that at some point you don't need to consciously keep track of it all the time, and eventually you just do it---it all comes together on its own.

It's the same mental process used in learning all kinds of complex body movements. I used to tell my riders that there were 3 stages to get to the point where they didn't constantly need to be totally aware of what they were doing. Stage 1 was "manual" where they had to isolate each tiny part of whatever movement they were trying to learn, repeating it over and over. Then stage 2 was semi-automatic where parts of what they were learning could be done by itself and yet other parts still needed to be thought about and mentally isolated and pushed for it to happen. Stage 3 was automatic. The learning was complete and they could do whatever it was without giving it a lot of thought. The only thinking involved a sort of mental overview as the learned movement was in progress and then recognizing what was to be the next major movement and so on until whatever they were doing had been completed. As an added benefit it made what seemed as a daunting task into a smaller more manageable ones, and it gave the riders confidence that they would learn it, and that they could keep track of their progress by realizing how much or how little time they spent actively thinking about what they were doing.

Okay---so I have this straight in my mind, LOL. A centered spin is more guaranteed when the skater goes into the 3-turn entry with considerable power/push to get the deep edge as opposed to just stay lengthening the time they cover the ice surface (in seconds) until the skater thinks their body is ready to commence the spin. So it's the combination of the power/push of the blades and the rapid decrease in the diameter arc of the circle being skated and the body postion that sets the spin in motion. Right? LOL

Yipes! figuring out how to word this and accurately describe the mental images tumbling throught my mind as I process what I'm reading is a real mental gymnastic workout, and in the end I hope you understand what I'm saying.

Mary C.

Blue Bead
Member
Posts: 668
(1/21/06 12:47 pm)
| Edit | Del Re: Spins Smile
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
After reading all the posts concerning Euro's, I have some more questions.

With CoP all the performed elements now have levels of difficulty assigned to them. What determines those levels? Does the difficulty increase because of changes in the basic body positions, and is that difficulty present due to changes in weight distribution of the skater's body while spinning? What are the differences between a level 4 spin, a level 3 spin as compared to a level 1 spin?

Mary C.

Blue Bead
Member
Posts: 674
(1/22/06 7:26 pm)
| Edit | Del Re: Spins Smile
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
After watching "Sarah Hughes and Friends," and seeing Stephane Lambiel do a headless spin, I wondered if those headless spins make the skater more dizzy then a regular spin? LOL
Since the head is in a more outward position than when it's upright during a normal spin, does it alter when the skater feels during the spin?

Mary C.

_________________
allez BJDGbanner


Gislaine
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Gislaine
The Boss
avatar

Number of posts : 13307
Localisation : Lyon ,France
Registration date : 2006-06-10

PostSubject: Re: Spins :)   13.06.06 19:30

Re: Spins Smile
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Loves2, thanks so much for taking the time to answer my questions.


Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I don't know if people realize just how perfect a quadruple jump must be for it to be completed. Everything has to be in place. The control you must have over your body motion is mind boggling.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


So---you can't allow your mind to disassociate and forget to "feel" how the various body motions work together while your rotating and traveling over and above the ice surface during a quad ....or really any multi-rotational jump! It makes sense that the more a skater does the jump repeatedly the more aware he/she becomes of what feels "right" and when "something" is wrong.

Can a skater recall the specifics of how the body felt in during all the motions of the jump---after the program is completed and he/she is off the ice? I can certainly see that recalling what was felt, right or wrong, would be do-able immediately after that particular jump. I guess what I'm asking is does the passage of time, till the skater gets off the ice after the run-though or performance during competition, diminish how much the skater can recall about what went wrong or right? I can also understand how the skater could feel the approach of an on-coming fall, but can the skater feel that he/she has dropped a shoulder or failed to check out enough to stop the rotation at just the "right" time without the aid of the video?

I would think that in such cases is where video recording of the jumps and combinations, etc would be invaluable to assist the skater in, not only recalling the feelings of what when wrong, but seeing what the nuances of those wrong or right feelings are.


Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I was trying a new position; going from a flying camel spin, to a layover, to reaching down my skating leg with my head going downward as my free leg stayed up. (Kinda charlotte-ish, but I'm not THAT flexible, so not so straight up and down as that ) Because of my head going downward so much, and I was spinning so fast, it felt like my face was going to be pulled righ off of me and as if all of my body fluids had come rushing into my head. I was surprised at how it felt,
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Sounds like centrifugal force nearly scrambled your brains! That's the kind of thing the average fan would never consider happening to a skater has he/she learns new moves. Thanks for sharing that!

Mary C.

Love2Smile
Member
Posts: 1365
(2/1/06 12:24 am)
| Edit | Del Re: Spins Smile
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You're welcome, Mary!

As far as recalling the specifics of what happened during a performance... It really depends on each individual experience. I've had times when I got off the ice after performing/competing a program and at first, couldn't recall a single thing that I did or didn't do- I think that once I even asked my coach "did I even do that jump??" LOL. (that was an extreme case, mind you- that's not the norm )
But other times, I've finished and could immediately recall "Oh, I lost my check on that loop!" etc.
Personally, I usually don't remember much except for how the program felt in general, and if I fell or didn't fall, right after getting off the ice. But then as I get my breath back and sit down a few moments it comes back to me and I can recall most of the specifics of the performance and mull over it in my mind. Then you begin to think of how to improve for the next performance.

Yes, video is very beneficial, to see yourself and recall the performance is a good thing. But when it comes to correcting jumps for the next performance, it's really just a matter of practicing. Once a competition is over, you can't re-do that missed jump, so not much sense in over-evaluating that one jump out of the many that you do over and over in practice.
There are times when you may need to do something about other factors, such as "oh, I couldn't breathe while going into that jump..." Then you know that you need to work on your endurance, your breathing in the program, choreograph a "rest spot", whatever.

Hopefully I'm making sense, I've very right now...


Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
sounds like the centrifugal force nearly scrambled your brains!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Yes! That's exactly what it felt like!! LOL!

~Love2Smile!


Edited by: Love2Smile

_________________
allez BJDGbanner


Gislaine
Back to top Go down
View user profile
humming bird
Le Blues du Businessman
avatar

Number of posts : 2083
Age : 27
Localisation : Poland
Registration date : 2006-06-14

PostSubject: Re: Spins :)   18.06.07 19:35

I've got question on spins. you know... for me they are just (sorry to say it) boring. I mean a skater is just turning and it looks the same all the time. I decided that I would like to know what I should be particularly looking at, focus on to say if it was a good spin or not. could you please tell me what is it? some basics for me Wink
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Love2Smile
ma gueule
avatar

Number of posts : 1392
Age : 33
Registration date : 2006-06-13

PostSubject: Re: Spins :)   22.06.07 16:21

Hi, Marta!

Boring?? Really? I've never heard anyone call a spin that... Laughing (Although, I would agree when it comes to most outside edge spins, thanks to our new judging system... Rolling Eyes )

Sometimes it may be more exciting and fun to perform a spin than to watch it. It's such a fun sensation to spin fast! :biellmando5:

Well, some general things that would make a spin "good" would be if it's centered (stays in one place and does not travel), balanced (the skater isn't losing his/her ballance), and fast. Smile

~Love2Spin! Very Happy
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://www.poeticwanderings.wordpress.com
Rach
vip
avatar

Number of posts : 2458
Age : 27
Localisation : La Matrix.
Registration date : 2006-08-15

PostSubject: Re: Spins :)   25.06.07 12:49

agggg I hate spins! I am going to borrow this comment from another certain skater in saying that they make my head swell.

Marta, to add onto what Heidi said, one more thing that is looked for in spins is tension in position. This means that the skater's body is tight - not loose - and his limbs are extended to create the proper line (look at Emanuel Sandhu's camel spin vs. Brian's camel spin to see an example of good and poor tension in spins). With the new system, keeping tension is even more important as, to receive extra points for difficult variations of positions, it is specifically stated that the skater MUST maintain tension throughout the execution of the position.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Love2Smile
ma gueule
avatar

Number of posts : 1392
Age : 33
Registration date : 2006-06-13

PostSubject: Re: Spins :)   27.06.07 2:51

Well said, Rach!
I was just going to add to my previous post about the importance of position, for the look of the spin as well as technique. But you explained about tension very well. :super: :biellmando5:

Really? You hate spins? I absolutely love them! Just the other day I was just skating for fun and spinning and twirling almost every chance I got.. It was so much fun!!

(goodness, we have a hail storm here! Shocked Ok, I think it's stopped now...)
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://www.poeticwanderings.wordpress.com
Rach
vip
avatar

Number of posts : 2458
Age : 27
Localisation : La Matrix.
Registration date : 2006-08-15

PostSubject: Re: Spins :)   01.07.07 15:17

Thank you Heidi, there is a reason that I can explain tension so well. You see, my coach is forever criticising my positions : « You have no tension! That isn't going to get any credit! » to which my response is always that there IS tension... if only the speciallist was feeling what I feel, he'd know! In other words I am not flexible at all.

Actually, I should amend my previous comment. I LOVE spins... so long as I happen to be airbone while doing them. Wink
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Love2Smile
ma gueule
avatar

Number of posts : 1392
Age : 33
Registration date : 2006-06-13

PostSubject: Re: Spins :)   02.07.07 0:47

Haha, you're always so candid, Rach. Wink
Sorry to hear of your frustration!
I wish you stress-free, great tension-in-your-extension spins! :super:

My favorite spin to do is the layback... The other day I was experimenting with some different positions, and did some that I've never done before.. It was a ton of fun! :biellmando5:
I also enjoy flying camels!! Wee-Hoooo!!
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://www.poeticwanderings.wordpress.com
Rach
vip
avatar

Number of posts : 2458
Age : 27
Localisation : La Matrix.
Registration date : 2006-08-15

PostSubject: Re: Spins :)   02.07.07 12:43

Quote :
I wish you stress-free, great tension-in-your-extension spins! :super:

Merci ! My coach will be very happy too if your wish comes true.


As to your favourite spins, I find that funny because those are probably my to least favourite spins. :lach: I haven't done a flying camel in years (now we have the choice to do any flying spin, so I do death drop. And, if ever I liked a spin, it's the death drop. ^__^) and as for a layback... well... I'm angry that they still make the ladies do one in the short. rage My coach and I have a deal. She refers to layback as "this one" and sequence of spirals as "that one" and we have agreed that I only need to do one of each per week. I try do fulfill this requirement when no one else is there to see. Embarassed

That said, I am fortunate in that my "back" spins are much better than my "normal-foot" spins... which is good for the new system.
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Love2Smile
ma gueule
avatar

Number of posts : 1392
Age : 33
Registration date : 2006-06-13

PostSubject: Re: Spins :)   03.07.07 4:05

Somehow, I'm not surprised at your choice of favorite spin... Very Happy

lol- I'm glad you and your coach have an understanding and have a system worked out!

That is great, that your back spins are good. :super: I'm still working on mine- trying to get the back camel faster.
I like to do the layover position in both camels and back camels. It's much more interesting to look up while spinning! Very Happy

If you don't mind my asking, how much would you say that you work on spins in general? :biellmando5:
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://www.poeticwanderings.wordpress.com
Rach
vip
avatar

Number of posts : 2458
Age : 27
Localisation : La Matrix.
Registration date : 2006-08-15

PostSubject: Re: Spins :)   04.07.07 12:05

I learned yesterday that it is not advisable to attempt the change of edge in spins immediately after having had the blades sharpened.

Love2Smile wrote:

It's much more interesting to look up while spinning! Very Happy

Laughing You know, that is true, but for me, I get terrible headaches when I do that so I usually close my eyes. My coach tells me that I'd better learn to keep my eyes open during spins if I ever want to do pairs. :naughty15kz:

To answer your question, I probably spend between zero and thirty minutes a day on spins. Laughing However my coach does occasionally get it into her head that I must, must, must work on this somewhat neglected aspect of my skating in which case I'll spend I good deal more time on them. My positions used to be horrible but now that they are quite acceptable, I don't spin much more than is required to get through a programme... That being said I am quite prepared to put in several hours on the death drop today so that the position in the air is, euh, photo-worthy. Very Happy
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Love2Smile
ma gueule
avatar

Number of posts : 1392
Age : 33
Registration date : 2006-06-13

PostSubject: Re: Spins :)   09.07.07 2:33

Eeks, I learned that lesson one day too, Rach! Embarassed (My edge got caught and I fell so hard on my knee, at just the right angle, that I couldn't walk normally for a few days afterward... Neutral )

Really? You get headaches when you spin? How unfortunate! kisses I am glad that I haven't experienced that problem!

Ooh, I'd love to see a photo of your death drop someday! Smile

Do you like to do any particular catch foot positions in your spins?
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://www.poeticwanderings.wordpress.com
Rach
vip
avatar

Number of posts : 2458
Age : 27
Localisation : La Matrix.
Registration date : 2006-08-15

PostSubject: Re: Spins :)   09.07.07 12:15

Love2Smile wrote:


Ooh, I'd love to see a photo of your death drop someday! Smile


Actually, you will, because that is the picture that I am putting in the album for Brian's birthday. Wink

As for spins while holding the foot, let's say that my repetoire is very... limited. I can, um, grab my leg in a sit spin! Oooh, and that terrible upright leg-hold popularised by (and better-looking on) Brian. Laughing Then, amazingly, I can also do a very good Bielmann :biellmando5: although it hurts a lot and I do not like doing it so much! I figure it is because that spin requires back flexibility, which I have to some degree, and not as much leg/groin flexibility, which I have not at all. Wink

Do you like the difficult variation spins? Me, I would do nothing but basic ones if there was no difference in the points... more time to jump :jumping:
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Love2Smile
ma gueule
avatar

Number of posts : 1392
Age : 33
Registration date : 2006-06-13

PostSubject: Re: Spins :)   11.07.07 3:55

I like the difficult variatons, but to a certain degree!

Right now, with the new system, I think it's just overkill... There is no simplicity whatsoever, so you don't get the chance to enjoy any of the basic spin positions. And some skaters try things that simply do not look good at all and do nothing to add to the program itself. I find that to be very annoying... But I love creativity and being creative with spins I love you , as long as it looks good and doesn't contain 100 changes of edge within the same spin. Razz (I really dislike the change-edge feature in sit spins!!)

Oooh, congrats on the beilman! clap And you said you weren't very flexible?? Well, if you can do that position, that sounds pretty flexible to me. Wink
I can do some nice camel positions, and laybacks, but no beilman. But, I don't work on it much, either.
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://www.poeticwanderings.wordpress.com
Rach
vip
avatar

Number of posts : 2458
Age : 27
Localisation : La Matrix.
Registration date : 2006-08-15

PostSubject: Re: Spins :)   11.07.07 12:18

I consider myself fortunate if I manage to get into basic camel position. Laughing beurk !

I have noticed that a lot of people dislike the new rules as they relate to spins. Personally, I've never really taken issue with it, but my mum (who is an avid figure skating-watcher) would heartly agree with you!

The change-edge, it is funny because I remember very distinctly many years ago saying something like, why would anyone want to work on that? It's not like it gets any credit or anything! Laughing
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Sheena
Moderator
avatar

Number of posts : 5583
Localisation : Ireland
Registration date : 2006-06-13

PostSubject: Re: Spins :)   11.07.07 14:08

Rach wrote:
The change-edge, it is funny because I remember very distinctly many years ago saying something like, why would anyone want to work on that? It's not like it gets any credit or anything! Laughing

How times change! I have read that (from next season) holding a single postion for 8 revolutions will count as a "level" in spins - will this help or hinder you Rach?

_________________
~Sheena~

"I find television very educating. Every time somebody turns on the set, I go into the other room and read a book" - Groucho Marx
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Rach
vip
avatar

Number of posts : 2458
Age : 27
Localisation : La Matrix.
Registration date : 2006-08-15

PostSubject: Re: Spins :)   13.07.07 12:14

Sheena, this is indeed a change that will be in effect for the new season, along with several other changes to the criteria for the levels of spins and footwork. It is so confusing sometimes!

Anyhow, to answer your question, it is easy for me to do > 8 turns in a position, but this is not practical in my programmes because there simply is not enough time to do that as well as all of the various contortions that would get the level up higher. So, no, I am not planning on using that as a bullet (unless I am absurdly early on my music for some reason).
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Love2Smile
ma gueule
avatar

Number of posts : 1392
Age : 33
Registration date : 2006-06-13

PostSubject: Re: Spins :)   14.07.07 19:56

(unless I am absurdly early on my music for some reason.)
lol!
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://www.poeticwanderings.wordpress.com
Love2Smile
ma gueule
avatar

Number of posts : 1392
Age : 33
Registration date : 2006-06-13

PostSubject: Re: Spins :)   27.07.07 2:35

This week I have been trying flying camel/flying camel and camel/flying camel combos... lol! :biellmando5:

I also discovered that I really like twisting and looking upwards or sideways while doing sit and back sit spins. Very Happy

Anyhoo... Isn't skating just a blast?!? :skatesmile2: :skating: :biellmando5:
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://www.poeticwanderings.wordpress.com
Aquamarine
Lord of the Dance


Number of posts : 1951
Age : 24
Localisation : Istanbul/Turkey
Registration date : 2007-06-09

PostSubject: Re: Spins :)   27.07.07 5:32

Love2Smile wrote:
This week I have been trying flying camel/flying camel and camel/flying camel combos... lol! :biellmando5:

I also discovered that I really like twisting and looking upwards or sideways while doing sit and back sit spins. Very Happy

Anyhoo... Isn't skating just a blast?!? :skatesmile2: :skating: :biellmando5:

Well done :super: I tryed this ( flying camel) but I can't did. I do a camel but flyingg?OMG this is difficult...But,I will try again. Smile who can do this??
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Love2Smile
ma gueule
avatar

Number of posts : 1392
Age : 33
Registration date : 2006-06-13

PostSubject: Re: Spins :)   29.07.07 2:18

Pelin, so you're a skater too? Cool! Very Happy I didn't realize that before. How long have you been skating?
Back to top Go down
View user profile http://www.poeticwanderings.wordpress.com
Aquamarine
Lord of the Dance


Number of posts : 1951
Age : 24
Localisation : Istanbul/Turkey
Registration date : 2007-06-09

PostSubject: Re: Spins :)   29.07.07 7:18

Love2Smile wrote:
Pelin, so you're a skater too? Cool! Very Happy I didn't realize that before. How long have you been skating?

I started to skate 2 years ago. I just skating before and on January,I started lessons. But,anyway I know skating,just I learned spins,go back,and little jump...I can do jump but very very little...Just ,one jump.
I am not good on ice...You?Do you know jump or spin?
Back to top Go down
View user profile
Sponsored content




PostSubject: Re: Spins :)   

Back to top Go down
 
Spins :)
View previous topic View next topic Back to top 
Page 1 of 2Go to page : 1, 2  Next

Permissions in this forum:You cannot reply to topics in this forum
Brian Joubert Discussion Group :: Skating General :: Technical Talk-
Jump to: