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Gislaine
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PostSubject: Jumps   13.06.06 19:31

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Katya0812
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Jumps
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There are quite a few people who do not know which jump is which. And to be honest, except for a couple that are quite obvious to me, if I blink during the takeoff .. I don't know which jump was done either
So, I thought I would take a minute to explain what each jump is

The most recognizable jump is the axel, because it is usually the only jump in senior level competition to take off on a forward edge. An axel takes off on a forward outside edge with no toe pick assist and lands on the backward outside edge of the opposite foot. There is an extra half rotation making it the most difficult jump also.
There is another jump that takes off on a forward edge called a waltz jump, and is usually not seen in competition, but can be one of the first jumps a skater learns (especially when working up to an axel) since it is usually only one half rotation. Like the axel it takes off from a forward outside edge and lands on a backward outside edge.

Jumps are put into two categories, edge jumps and toe jumps. Toe jumps are "assisted" by the skater "picking" into the ice right before takeoff. The toe jumps are
Toe loop - this jumps takes off from and lands on the same backward outside edge (same foot)

Flip - this jump takes off from the back inside edge of one foot and lands on the back outside edge of the other foot

Lutz - considered to be the most difficult of the toe jumps, the jump takes off from a back outside edge and lands on the back outside edge of the other foot, the skater rotates in the opposite direction of the takeoff curve which makes it difficult to master

The edge jumps are not assisted in any way by the other skate. The edge jumps are...
Loop - this jump takes off from and lands on the same backward outside edge

Salchow - takes off from the back inside edge of one foot and lands on the back outside edge of the opposite foot

There are also the Walley jumps, but very few skaters ever use these anymore. Mr. Weiss did one in his program last season. There is a toe walley and a walley.
~Katya

Blue Bead
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Thanks for providing the basics of jumps, Katya. Now I've got a question. What is the difference between a walley and a toe walley?

Mary C.

Katya0812
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The difference is the use of the toe pick, like the loop and toe loop. The walley takes off from a backward inside edge (instead of the outside edge of the loop) and lands on the outside edge of the same foot, it is also "counter rotational" like the lutz.
~Katya

Love2Smile
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Katya! Wow, are you sure you don't skate and haven't done jumps yourself? I can tell you've done your research!

I'll just add that while you don't place the toe-pick in the ice to assist edge jumps per say, it is the last thing you press through in the motion of your jumping foot on an edge jump. Your ankle deeply flexes downward, then springs all the way through the toe as you press upward and jump. Just like if you tried to jump flat-footed off-ice, it doesn't work so well until you use your full range of motion through the ankles, knees and toes.
Just wanted to clarify that you do use the toe in edge jumps just a tiny bit, but in a different way than you do while performing toe jumps.

~Love2Smile!

Ninchen85
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(7/13/05 9:33 am)
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Katya, thanks for the information

I've never heard something about Walley jumps , so thank you!!!

Nina

SheenaVivien
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Just to add to Katya's descriptions!....

There are 2 different "toe-loops", the cherry flip & the toe walley. Most elite skaters use the toe walley as it is considered easier to control the swing & therefore helpful when attempting triples & especially quads. A left handed skater (like me!) enters with a forward outside 3 turn on their right foot, then steps onto their left foot, then uses the right foot toe pick to launch take-off, rotates (in the air preferably!!) & lands on the left foot. A leftie enters a cherry flip with a forward inside 3 turn on the left foot, then uses the right toe pick to launch take-off, rotates & lands on the left foot. All jumps are landed on a back outside edge (unless you are Suraya Bonaly!), it is the take-off that differs between the jumps. The only elite skater I can remember doing a cherry flip is Alexei Urmanov (& he could do a quad off it!), Alexei Yagudin uses the toe walley - as do most others.

A walley (according to the long suffering Stuart!) is basically a loop jump with an inside edge take-off, which makes it harder as it gives an extra half rotation - similar in difficulty to an axel.

A loop is usually easy to recognise as the skater uses the same foot for outside edge take-off & landing - many consider it to be the "purest" of the jumps. There are two different methods of approach:- the leftie skater enters on a forward inside 3 turn on their left foot, holds the outside edge & then pushes off, rotates & lands on the same left outside edge - Alexei Urmanov used this method. Most skaters approach off a back outside edge on their take-off/landing foot with the free foot lightly trailing in front (they look like they are starting to sit down), then they push off, rotate & land on the same outside edge.

A salchow (personnal comment -that horrible jump!!) is done by the leftie with a forward outside 3 turn on their right foot, followed by swinging the left leg through & launching off, rotating & landing on the left outside edge.

A flip can be confused with a salchow but the take-off toe pick launch is the same foot for landing, which is why it is harder. A leftie approach would be a 3 turn on the right foot onto the inside edge, stretch back & put the left toe pick in the ice for launch, rotate & land on the back left outside edge.

A lutz is the hardest toe jump. There are two diifferent approaches to this jump, either a long sweeping back outside edge on the (for a leftie) right foot, stretch back & place the left toe pick on the ice for launch, rotate & land on the left back outside edge - as per Alexei Urmanov & Elena Liaschenko. The other - as per Alexei Yagudin & Irina Slutskaya - has the skater approaching in forward direction, changing to backwards (via a mowhawk or similar move) before placing the toe pick for launch.

A 'flutz' is not a proper jump - it is an incorrect lutz with an inside edge take-off instead of the correct & more difficult outside edge, Sasha Cohen is especially prone to this, & I think that many skaters who use the 2nd method above can sometimes find themselves on the wrong edge. Equally a 'lip' is a flip with an outside edge take-off - Shizuka Arakawa can do this one -talk about making life harder for yourself!

A Waltz jump can also be called a 3 jump & is the 1st step towards an axel, being a half rotation in the air (leftie - forward outside edge right foot take-off, rotate & land on the left back outside edge). The axel adds full rotations (1, 2 or 3) to this.

I describe everything for a leftie as I would get confused otherwise! - swop feet for a right handed skater.

Sheena

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PostSubject: Re: Jumps   13.06.06 19:32

Jumps
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I used to Heidi, and I won't say how long ago that was .. or how long I have been involved in skating

Thank you Sheena for the additional explanations, I didn't include the flutz or the lip since they aren't supposed to be jumps even though quite a few top skaters have been known to do them

I think the important thing to remember when trying to identify jumps while watching skating is to look for the takeoff and landing ... it can be hard since we naturally tend to watch air position.

Now for our skaters ... can you talk about the steps needed to learn and master jumps?
~Katya

SheenaVivien
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I only included them Katya because commentators will mention them on tv!

I think that the 1st step in learning to jump is to be crazy!?!?But Heidi will be able to tell us properly about learning & mastering jumps.

Sheena

arlingtonian
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Here are a couple of links that may help --

figureskating.about.com/o...ndex_a.htm

And this one also has video clips (which SORT of worked for me )

www.sk8stuff.com/f_recog/...combos.htm

I learned the difference between some of the jumps by analyzing some of my skating videos in slow motion. If I heard a commentator name the jump, I would rewind the tape a few seconds, then slowly watch which foot is about to be used for the take off. That helped me understand the difference between a flip and a lutz. A toe pick is used for both jumps, but the left toe pick is used for one and the right toe pick is used for the other.

Keep in mind that if you do this at home with the videos that there are a few skaters who might mess you up because they skate "the other direction", clockwise. Emanuel Sandhu, Johnny Weir, Todd Eldredge, Sarah Hughes, Susannah Pokyio, pairs team Orsher & Lucash (I think) and a couple others spin and jump in a clockwise direction.

I have also noticed that edge jumps are usually done in the middle of the rink (loop, axel, salchow), while toepick jumps are done in the corner or near the barrier of the rink (lutz, flip).

Here is a Brian-related jump question. In his 'Untouchables' program, in the middle of his 'moves in the field', he sometimes did something that looked like a single jump. His arms weren't in 'jump' position, though (not clinging to his chest). Was that a walley jump? It looks cool, an interesting choreographic nugget .

And Sheena's mention of a "cherry flip" reminded me of my British instructor Nadine . Americans don't use the term.

Karen

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Edited by: arlingtonian at: 7/13/05 12:54 pm

Katya0812
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You can't use left or right due to skater preferance, I was taught that the takeoff edge is the only determining factor. Back inside edge for a flip and outside edge for a lutz. Good idea running a tape in slow motion. If you can do a frame by frame that would help even further, you can see the edge clearly.
One thing I noticed is that with certain skaters who I have been following for a long time, and who I have watched live often ... I don't need to see thier feet to know which jump they just did. Even if there are hockey boards in my way I know that Johnny just did a lutz, or that Alexei did a flip. Has anyone else had a similar experience with another skater, one you watch or practice with? Is it body position?
~Katya

SheenaVivien
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well, Johnny's catch-foot entrance would be a dead give away for the lutz!!!!....

Seriously though, I know what you mean Katya. I think it is a mixture of things - the placement of the jump, the position of the arms, maybe even posture or attitude. If the skater is doing their programme & you are familiar with, then you know what comes next (I had this experience with one of Neil Wilson's earlier programmes - the one he won his 1st senior national title with - he used to practice it sometimes when I was also on the ice; I always knew what was coming next & where he would be going to - very useful for staying out of his way! - I think I nearly knew the programme as well as he did!!) When you watch skaters live you seem to get to know how they look & act at different moments - read the body language, so to speak.

I think I am babbling, so I'll stop!

Sheena

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PostSubject: Re: Jumps   13.06.06 19:32

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Regarding those jumps which are done in the corners of the rink, is there some real benefit to doing them in the corners, or is it more of a psychological "push" to get the correct number of rotations finished?

Time and time again I've heard Dick Button harp about skaters doing this. LOL Why would he consider that action in a negative manner? Is it just a gimmick?

Mary C.

SheenaVivien
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I think it is mostly a "security" thing for skaters - probably psychological in that they feel safer with the barrier closer (maybe it goes back to clinging to the barrier as a beginner!! ).

The main danger is getting too close & either hitting the barrier (didn't Alexei Y do this in GWG 2001?) or jumping out over it (a la Midori Ito in Words 1991!) neither of which is good for one's health!! Sometimes a skater will 'run out' of room & will have to abort a jump or jump combination which will adversely affect their programme marks.

Sheena



Ninchen85
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ladies, thanks for all these information!!!

Do you think that you can also explain something about the spins? I mean all the different variations? Because that's the point where I still have problems

Nina

Edited by: Ninchen85 at: 7/13/05 6:46 pm

arlingtonian
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I can't jump (on or off the ice ), but my theories as to why some of the jumps are along the barriers :

1) if a jump is done after straight-line footwork (which needs to cover the entire length of the rink), well -- that's where the skater happens to be .

2) many non-North American skaters train on Olympic-size rinks, which are a couple meters wider. So when a competition takes place on a North American, NHL-size rink instead... .

3) nerves. skaters are concentrating so much on doing the jump correctly that they wait and glide a little longer than they do in practice (especially true for the lutz, I think)

4) a few months ago Brian did an interview about the physics of doing a quad jump. He explained that the preparation of the jump requires using the entire length of the rink --

p217.ezboard.com/fbrianjo...D=50.topic

Actually, Plushenko is the only quad jumper I can think of who is usually leaves plenty of space for himself.

Karen
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Edited by: arlingtonian at: 7/13/05 6:02 pm

Love2Smile
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Looks like this section is quite successful so far, Katya, look at all these long posts! Thank you for adding it!

Sheena, lol, I've never heard of the name "cherry flip" before, interesting!
Aww, you don't like salchows? They're my favorite; I really like the flow of them and think they're really fun to do!
LOL, I liked your comment about the first step in learning jumps is to "be crazy"...

Karen, I loved your term "interesting choreographic nugget" for the walley! I agree completely that that is what it is I'd have to watch that tape of Brian's program again to remember/ see if that's what it was... (I don't have that program stored in my memory like the others quite yet, since I wasn't familiar with him as a skater at that time when he performed The Untouchables- but the "Matrix" and "Time" I could practically tell you every step, I remember it all so much...
That's a really good suggestion to slow-mo the jumps while watching tapes.

Mary, I agree with all the suggestions Karen and Sheena had about jumps getting too close to the barriers. There are many possible factors.
I also beleive that in some cases, a skater is truly just trying to make sure they are setting their jump up right and aligning their body correctly as the glide before the take-off, and just take a while to do that as they are concentrating. Most skaters really do practice it that way as well as do it in competition. The lutz is traditionally done in the "lutz corner" simply because of the design of the take-off, and that being the usual way to go about doing it. There are some that make variations on it though.
lol, my coach (I do coach, but I also still skate and take lessons as well) definitely emphasizes the placement of the jump not getting too close to the boards. She also has me do an "S" pattern into my lutz, where I skate backwards, do a strong backward inside edge on my left foot, then switch to the outside edge for the take-off. I like it alot because it puts my jump at center ice instead of the corner, and really helps me feel the correct take-off position.

Katya, I agree with Sheena about the body language in familiar skaters that you probably recognize as you watch them prepare for their jumps. Also I think that the exact placements of the jumps that a skater usually uses, the entry steps they use, where it is in their program, etc. are all factors as well.

As far as the steps needed to learn to master jumps...
For the take-off entry steps, you already learn mohawks and 3-turns in basic skills, which are then later used in the entrances of the jumps.
There are so many things that go into jumping... To the skater beginning to jump, the act of taking off is new, the rotation in the air is new, the air time is new, the momentum needed to rotate is new...
The skater first learns how to step into position in preperation for a jump, then learns how to use the rhythm of the whole body working together to JUMP off of the ice with momentum that's initiated on take-off so they can rotate once they are in the air. Much like you have to "wind up" for a spin, on jump take-offs you must "check" (twist) your waist STRONGLY in the opposite direction of rotation and then press up and fly... Now, here's a technique tidbit, of my own personal experience... My coach teaches me to slightly release that check as I jump, so that my shoulders are then directly lined up with my hips in the rotational position as I'm in the air. Wow, when she taught me that, I felt like I'd won the jackpot and suddenly jumps made sense to me- I had always learned to try to NOT release the check whatsoever from my previous coach, and boy I always felt so stuck with no freedom to go anywhere at all. I felt like I was always fighting a losing battle on take-off the more I tried to keep that twist from moving any little centimeter as I jumped, the more it wanted to go somewhere.
Granted, it IS common knowledge not to let your upper body/shoulders twist PAST the hips into the direction of rotation, but coming just to center from that major twist creates an amazing amount of momentum to help you initiate rotation (but it also works together in relation to the rest of your body on take-off as part of the rhythm needed to jump UPward... It's so important to have the right ballance of Jump vs. rotation- you don't want to create a small, spinny, all-rotation jump, but you also don't want to have a humungous jump and then no rotational momentum once you're up there...)
Then there's the re-check on the landing of the jump to stop that rotation, as you hopefully, successfully, smoothly glide to a graceful finish. This landing position is also taught in basic skills.

I just gotta get this off my chest... If your take-off is wrong or tilted, you will see the effects in the landing. Tilted/bad takeoff = tilted/bad landing; except for in rare cases when you see those almost un-human looking "saves" on the landing of a badly taken off jump.
But this is one of my biggest pet-peeves when listening to commentators... 90% of the time, IMO, when they say "oh, he/she just didn't check out of that jump on the landing and could have done it if he/she had simply checked the landing better..." it's not true. If the take-off is wacky, that incorrect motion has already started on take-off and it's almost impossible to completely correct it mid-air and then land perfectly. Once you're in the air, you're at the mercy of being stuck with what you started with!
lol, it's a bummer to already be in the air and then feel/know "this isn't right/I'm tilted/ I'm gonna fall..."
There are indeed some cases when a skater simply doubts him/herself and "reaches" for the ice on the landing, too, but not too often.

~Love2Smile!

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PostSubject: Re: Jumps   13.06.06 19:33

: Jumps
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When I asked the question and made the comment about just knowing certain jumps .. I really wasn't referring to them being in a program. In Johnny's case, yes the catch foot into the lutz last year was a giveaway, but while I was watching him do it a couple of days ago, he wasn't doing the catch foot nor was it a program I had seen before. Much like watching Alexei working or even coaching .. when he does his flip I assume it is body position before take-off and after landing, but I don't know, which was why I asked. Is posture and/or prep position individual to each skater? Maybe those that currently skate or teach would know.
Heidi, thanks but the credit for this section goes to Mary .. it was her idea
I'm curious about something, since you brought up how you will be tilted due to an incorrect take-off, I have seen some skaters, and Plushenko comes to mind on this, who are SO incredibly titled in the air that I think "there is NO WAY he can land that" and he does! How? Is that just pure strength? To right yourself and land properly?
~Katya

Love2Smile
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Katya, like I said, there are some cases where you see the skater amazingly "save" the jump- most of the time it's due to sheer determination and strength to make it work... For example, I've seen skaters land their jump so low to the ice that they are actually in a backward shoot-the-duck position, and then just use their strength to get themselves back up to a normal upright postition without putting their foot down. Hard to do!
*A shoot-the-duck, by the way, is a move where the skater balances extremely low to the ice with the freeleg extended in front- picture Johnny Weir's sit spin in a glide instead of in a spin, and that's what it looks like. I have no idea where it got such a goofy name!
As far as being tilted, the definition of "tilted" is pretty hard to pin-point, as far as how off kilter the skater is, and how much it affected his/her landing. It's true that tilted jumps can be saved in some cases, but the extra effort certainly has to be put forth- most jumps are simply too far gone to save if the take-off was incorrect enough. (that's why we fall )

~Love2Smile!

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Note to Sheena (and possibly other non-Americans) -- a 'shoot-the-duck' is what you call a 'teapot'. I have also read that the French call it a 'coffee pot' as well as 'tir le lapin' (shoot the rabbit?).

If any of you have 2004 Cup of Russia coverage, you will find a good example of doing a 'shoot-the-duck' out of a jump. Julia Obertas saved a pairs throw jump by doing that . Male ice dancers often get into 'shoot-the-duck' position. Benjamin Agosto and Olivier Schoenfelder must have thighs and abs of steel in order to stay in that position. .

Soon we'll create other topics. Maybe one for spins and one for footwork. Personally, I would like to learn exactly what a bracket is (as well as a rocker).

Karen
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SheenaVivien
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Adding my opinion to what Heidi says about saved jumps......

I think it is mostly grim determination that allows skaters to save jumps - as long as the tilt is not too much! Dorota Z is especially good at saving bad air positions in throws, it is amazing what she can hold onto!! I guess also that as long as you get your edge on the ice then you probably have a better chance & of course strong legs are reguired!?

Sheena (specialising in the obvious?)

P.S. I had heard of "shoot the duck" & the teapot, but not the French versions before.

Edited by: SheenaVivien at: 7/15/05 6:38 am

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I've also seen the exact opposite, everything looks just fine and the skater has a beautiful edge and flow out of the jump and then *splat* (I think I need to make a splat emoticon)

Karen, go right ahead and start a thread on any topic you wish. Counters, rockers, brackets, mohawaks and twizzles are not all that well known to me as they are more in dance, but I do know the basics of what they are. Spins .. well now that is a great topic!
~Katya

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PostSubject: Re: Jumps   13.06.06 19:34

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Katya - that might be a momentary lapse of concentration! Or maybe they have gone too far over on the edge & lost it! Heidi will know!!

Heidi - I think my problem on salchows was a lack of flow!!??!!

Sheena

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I agree about needing the "splat" emoticon, Katya!

Factors that may make a skater go "splat" after looking like they are straight and fine in the air:
-Yes, sometimes it's a lapse in concentration...
-Sometimes the freeleg and arms simply do not get out of rotational position in time...
-Most of the time I would say that it's due to tiny glitches that aren't at first apparent to the human eye during the fast-moving element. All tiny incorrect alignments and angles or incorrect timing issues can affect the jump landing.

Hmm, lack of flow on sal's, huh Sheena?

Spins... Coming right up!

~Love2Smile!

Edited by: Love2Smile at: 7/17/05 1:43 am

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I've always wondered what competitive skaters think about while they are completing their programs before the judges. LOL Do skaters think a lot while they are competing or do they just let the jumps and other elements come automatically? If they do think a lot, what kinds of things enter their minds?

On a slightly different topic, how important is muscle memory to a skater, and especially to jumping? How long does it typically take before a skater learning an easy jump develops muscle memory for that jump, and does it take longer for the more difficult jumps?

Mary C.

arlingtonian
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I remember Scott Hamilton talk about doing the free program at . Jim McKay asked him shortly before the free skates at Salt Lake City "Do you have time to think about your program while you are actually doing it?". Hamilton said "if it's not going well... ... the best programs I ever had I can't remember" (McKay said "really? ) "because they were all done by muscle memory." Hamilton referred to a former U.S. skater who coined the phase "skate stupid" . "Shut off your brain, relax your shoulders and just do what you've trained your body to do. Do not let your mind get in the way."

Of course, that theory went out the window when Yagudin skated very well yet obviously changed his program during his free skate. Hamilton later admitted "earlier we talked about 'skating stupid'. Yagudin skated smart. He did what he thought he needed to do to keep his lead."

It probably depends on the skater, and why they skate. Does the skater enjoy competing, or does the skater feel more comfortable doing shows?

Karen

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Karen provided two great examples in her answer, with Scott's quotes and Alexei's Olympic performance. It really depends on the individual and also that individual experience. A skater doesn't always think the same things as they compete in each competition. Or sometimes, as Karen illustrated, they don't think at all. It's true! Sometimes you just go into "flow-mode" where feeling and muscle memory take over, and you just flow with it. Or there may be times you focus on one particular element that wasn't going well in practice- but most of the time, when you focus on something like that in a negative sense, it hinders more than helps your performance of that element. Alot of the time, for me personally, when I used to compete alot, I just thought of my technique and "cue words" going into each element. Such as "keep the left arm up," or sometimes I'd simply think "breathe." (breathing, BTW, is harder to do than it looks when you are performing a program at the same time! ) So, it all depends... But those are some examples.

Muscle memory is EXTREMELY important in figure skating, for jumps and everything else.
I recently read in the PSA (Professional Skater's Association) magazine that it takes app. 21 days for a movement to become a part of a skater's muscle memory. That was new information to me- I had never learned that particular specific information before.
As far as easier vs. harder jumps, that's hard to say. It is easier to learn an easier jump... However, once you have learned the element, and you are working on technique and movement patterns, I don't think it takes any longer to learn the muscle memory for that on any element more than the other, regardless of difficulty level. Once you begin to learn more difficult elements, your body is prepared to handle the higher difficulty after going through the "easier" elements. Unless you practiced your easier jumps with a technique that does not allow you to perform the harder jumps... Then it gets more complicated- to do the harder elements, you must re-learn everything and almost start from scratch. But even then, you retain certain things, such as the feeling of rotating in the air, etc. that are still helpful to you for progressing to the next level.

It's hard to be totally specific, since it also depends on the skater, the skater's ability, the technique he/she is using, etc. There are just so many factors involved in the learning of skills and attaining muscle memory...

~Love2Smile!


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Thanks, everyone. This is a terrific thread. Not only am I becoming so much more informed about the basics of skating, but (on another thread) I'm learning to talk about them in German.

Margaret

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lol Margaret, yeah, this is a very educational board, isn't it?

~Love2Smile!

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Margaret!

It's a pleasure to help

Nina

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What does it mean to "check" the landing of a jump? I've never seen an adequate explanation for it. I gather that it is used to stop the rotation on both spins and jump revolutions. How is it done, what body parts are involved and how are they used?

Mary C.

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I think it means to have the shoulders in just the right position. Too far back, and the jump is over-rotated. Too far forward, and . Love2jump will tell you more.

Karen

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If I fall when landing a jump, it's usually because my muscles are too tired.
Other than that, there are not to many possibilities to fall on single jumps (trying doubles is a different story).

About the shoot the duck thing:
In German it's called "pistole".
And in Dutch its just a "sit on one leg" (before you master this move on one leg, you practise the "sit on both legs").



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As far as I know to check a jump landing means to hold the landing position - preferably into a running edge a la Brian. If it is not checked then the landing is easier to loose, either with a fall, a touch down (hand) or two footed - or even a wrong (inside) edge.

Sheena

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I have more questions, LOL.

On more than one occasion I have come across two phrases in reference to jumps: "open hip" and "closed hip." What exactly does it mean? What happens if the hip isn't open (or closed) for a particular type jump when it's supposed to be?

Mary C.

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Hmm, I don't know what happened on my last post... But I had posted about checking a landing:

-To "check" the landing means to twist your waist in the opposite direction of rotation to stop the rotational momentum. For example, a normal counter-clockwise rotator would land the jump with his/her waist twisted to the right slightly, as the leg extends behind, for a *hopefully* smooth finish to a spectacular jump.

Open and closed hips:
Another good question, Mary!
The best example of an open hip (for visualization) would be of the free leg position in a *good* layback spin (like Sasha's or Sarah Hughes ). The hip is "open"- but in a Michelle Kwan-type layback, where the free foot is pointed down toward the ice, the hip is closed.

In jumps, the way I am taught, the axel is a jump in which you want your free-leg hip to be open as you extend the leg behind you before swinging it forward for the take-off.
....I do have to log-off now, but I will try to explain further later!

~Love2Smile!!


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My hips can't remain 'open' on the ice yet . I can place my feet in a spread eagle position on the floor, but when I no longer have the luxury of friction, and try it on the ice... ... Actually, I suddenly notice when I do that, that flexibility is only half the issue. I think I need to increase the strength in my hip and butt muscles in order to keep the feet turned out at least 180 degrees . At home I occasionally torture myself by lying on the floor on my stomach, turning the feet outward, then lift the legs off of the floor. , do I feel it in my lower back when I do that! I also wonder if my ankles are flexibile enough to keep my feet in open hip position.

Well, that had little to do with jumps.

Karen



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Yes, there are many factors besides flexibility when it comes to performing a move on the ice... Ballance, strength, technique, and guts all factor in.

~Love2Smile!

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All of this information is really helping me understand how skaters do what they do.

Thanks everyone.

Margaret

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I've got new questions,lol.

Why is an inside edge take-off for a jump hard to do? Does this relate to the skater's balance before the take-off or is it just in relation to the way the human body is balanced, genrally speaking?

In landing a walley jump, why does the skater land on a back outide edge? Is this related to the effects of centrifugal force or is it simply the mechanics of a human body's balance? Could it be landed on an inside edge? If it could, would that limit what moves and elements could come after it?

Mary C.

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PostSubject: Re: Jumps   13.06.06 19:35

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Hi again! Sorry, I wasn't able to be on the computer much the last few days...

You came up with some good questions, Mary!


Hmm, an inside edge take-off is no more difficult to do than an outside edge, really... It depends on in what context you are speaking of.
Some skaters may struggle more with a salchow, which has an inside edge take-off, than with a loop, which has an outside edge take-off. But then, others may struggle more with a loop than a salchow. So really, there are equal struggles with either edge...

The landing edge has to do with the arc of a jump, rotational direction, and the choice of landing foot.

First of all, jumps follow/travel on arcs. The air travel and the landing both follow/travel on the arc of the take off. A counter-clockwise rotating person lands the jump on that same counter-clockwise arc as take-off. Like the shapes of these parenthesis, if you follow the arc from top to bottom:
a counter-clockwise rotator's arc travels in this direction: (
and a clockwise rotator's arc travels in this direction: )

A good example of the mechanics of this is a frisbee. To land a jump, on the inside edge of the normal landing foot, would be like throwing a frisbee to rotate in the air and travel on an arc, then expect it to suddenly start travelling in the opposite direction before hitting the ground. (without the help of any wind, ofcourse, lol )

However, there is a way to land on the inside edge fairly comfortably: land on the opposite foot.
To do this, a normal counter-clockwise rotator, who normally lands on the right foot, would land on his/her left foot instead, thus continuing to follow the arc of the jump but landing on an inside edge.

There are some unique and interesting elements that do this. For example, a half-loop, which takes off of the back outside edge and lands on the back inside edge.
A skater could do a jump sequence which could include a half-loop, then immediately take off from that landing edge to do a salchow (which has a left inside edge take-off).
There is also a curiosity of a jump called a "one foot axel," which, for a normal rotator, takes off of and lands on the left foot. You don't often see this performed, that's for sure! Partly because it's not pretty , and partly because you cannot rotate it in the correct rotational position because you have to rotate over the left foot in order to land on the left foot, which is what causes it to not be pretty.
A normal rotator rotates over the right foot in a cross-legged air position- so a one foot axel is really a novelty, not usually used, because it's not the best looking and it isn't helpful for other jumps. And if you practice it, it can even make your regular axel get all weirded out , because you normally train to have your body rotate over your right leg.
...So that basically answers your question about limitations/advantages of moves that could be done immediately following an inside edge landing. It actually enables some different things, such as a quick take-off for a salchow within a jump sequence.


A walley is a really unique and crazy jump because it takes off of an inside curve, off of the RIGHT foot, for a normal rotator... Thus, for a normal rotator, it is taking off from a *clockwise* rotational curve/edge, and it is then landed on the *counter-clockwise* rotational curve/ege of the right back outside edge.
It still lands on the outside counter-clockwise travelling edge because the jump is still being *rotated* counter-clockwise, so the jump after takeoff travels in a counter-clockwise direction, or arc.
This jump is sometimes performed in both directions, by the same skater, regardless of the skater's usual rotational direction.

Hopefully these explanations have been helpful!

~ Love2Smile!

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PostSubject: Re: Jumps   13.06.06 19:35

Jumps
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Thanks a bunch, Loves2....I think. It's gonna take my mind some time to wrap around all the descriptions of which arc each jump takes off on and lands on so that I'm getting all the nuances about what you've said. At the moment my brain is all wobbly LOL as I consider all that you've explained. But give me a little while and I'm sure I'll come back with more questions, LOL.

Mary C.

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LOL, I even got a little while typing the explanations for that particular question...

Sorry, I tried to explain it as clearly as possible... It certainly is interesting to type something like that, because you don't have the advantage of using your body to show examples, like I usually do alot when I teach. But I hope that I didn't leave you too confused...

~Love2jump!

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No, you didn't leave me confused...at least not in the normal sense, LOL.

The thing I find difficult (and this is in any explanation about something which requires that a person be going through those motions to really get what's being explained) is that I'm trying to imagine the feel of the movements without out being in figure skates and out on the ice surface. I do have some memories of what the very basics of skating feels like when those motions are made but to take it beyond that and get a sense of motions I've never done myself, is why I have trouble visualizing in my brain how the element looks, what the body's balance is and how it changes throughout the element from its start to its finish. But this is exactly the kind of research I need for the novel I'm working on, LOL. Specifically what the skater feels as an element is being performed.

I've resorted to some strange movements and motions across my living room floor with my wheeled office chair, LOL, in order to get the closest understanding to the things you're explaining.

Mary C.

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I was going to recommend that you try to recreate some of the motions and positions on the floor, LOL!

~ Love2Smile!

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What's even funnier than me "practicing" across the living room floor is when I'm trying the same thing across the length of my smooth linoleum floor in the basement! LOL Last night I was trying to get a 'sense' of skating backward (to see if I could rekindle in my mind what that sensation is like LOL) and I discovered that the process can be dangerous, lol, because I don't have much control over to where the wheeled office chair sails. But the process did give me the sensation of skating backwards! Now if I can just figure out how to stop--and avoid bruises.

Mary C.

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discovered that the process can be dangerous

Mary

what about the moonwalk
is that even possible on skates?

manon

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Glad you are enjoying your "off-ice" skating Mary!!!

The best "moonwalking" I have seen done on ice was Vladmir Kotin (one of the top Soviet skaters during the mid to late 1980's - now a coach) who used to do a brilliant exhibition programme to "Billie Jean".

Sheena

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LOL, Mary!! Just be careful now- watch out for those lamps, house plants, etc....

Yep, moonwalking is fun on skates! I've never seen the person you're talking about though, Sheena... Sounds interesting!

~ Love2Smile, love2jump, love2spin, love2sail, love2fly.....




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Mr Kotin was well before your time Heidi! He won 4 successive European silvers (how frustrating!) &, I think, a worlds bronze, he was a rival of Alexander Fadeev & Jumpin' Joe & was very artistic. I saw him 'live' once as part of the Russian Ice Stars cast & his spinning was still excellent!

He now coaches along with his 'old' coach Elena Chaiksotava (sorry about the spelling!) - you know Sergei Davydov etc!!!

Sheena

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PostSubject: Re: Jumps   03.12.06 23:16

When a skater does a triple jump how does he/she know they've completed the required number of revolutions? Is it by a sense of time flying through the air or are there other factors at work?

Mary C.
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PostSubject: Re: Jumps   04.12.06 20:02

once I read an interesting article about quads, there are some issues about knowing how many turns etc. maybe you didn't read it:
http://www.yourfilelink.com/get.php?fid=226647 (I've put it on the server cause it's 2,5 pages long Smile )
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PostSubject: Re: Jumps   05.12.06 18:07

thank you marta.

I found one site too with all kinds of jumps, foot turns and spins
here it is.

http://www.sk8stuff2.com/f_recog/recog_j_axel.htm

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PostSubject: Re: Jumps   06.12.06 12:45

humming bird wrote:
once I read an interesting article about quads, there are some issues about knowing how many turns etc. maybe you didn't read it:
http://www.yourfilelink.com/get.php?fid=226647 (I've put it on the server cause it's 2,5 pages long Smile )

This is really late reply but,

OH ARE THERE PROBLEMS !!! HA !

Generally, one learns « where four turns is » by a lot of practice and feedback from the coach. In my personal experience, this distinction is much harder than that from two to three turns... for four turns, confidence that one has appropriately pulled in with enough force is as important as any actually perception of turning. Usually. lol!

Actually this is probably the biggest single hurdle that I for one have to overcome to truly and consistently land quadruple jumps. I just don't know in most cases when it is appropriate to begin stopping the rotation. Only LOTS of repetition ingrains this "sixth sense" that enables one to sense when he has done four turns in the air.

The upshot is that Brian is 100 % right; quads feel like flying!
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PostSubject: Re: Jumps   06.12.06 17:11

WOOO Rach! cheers

Unlike Rach, I have never tried a quad, but I have tried triples. It wasn't too difficult to feel the three rotations in comparison to the double, particularily because the rotational intensity is so much greater for a triple than a double. When you do a double that is big and good enough to be a triple, you don't rotate as fast or pull your arms and legs in as tightly.

The first time I tried a triple loop, I was amazed at how just by thinking triple and pulling in tighter (after a good takeoff) I felt like I got sucked up into a tornado! It was a much faster rotational speed than I'd ever done before. Then I just stayed in as long as I could, because I'd never landed one before and didn't want to be short of rotation.

At any rate, I can imagine it would be a bit harder with a quad! But like Rach said, it's basically practice, practice, practice... Wink
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PostSubject: Re: Jumps   06.12.06 18:41

Thanks to both Rach and Love2 for these answers.

I love the description of being sucked up into a tornado, LOLOLOL.

Rach's comment:
Quote :
I just don't know in most cases when it is appropriate to begin stopping the rotation

Now, that's something which never occured to me---figuring out when to stop the rotation. LOL I'm assuming that you're trying to determine when to land going in the appropriate direction on the ice. When you are making your first attempts are you checking the rotation by your own decision or does your coach tell you when to do it as first?

Love2....When you first tried the triples what sensation in your body told you the rotation was farther along then just a double. What parts of your body "read" the rotational intensity and told you the triple was way more than just a double? Is the rotation noticeable (as a sense of feeling) in your arms and torso because of the centrifugal force acting on the body? What is that feeling exactly?

Mary C.
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PostSubject: Re: Jumps   07.12.06 6:08

You feel it in your entire body, really. Your arms and legs are pulled in tighter, and you feel that .."intensity" is still the best word that I could use to describe it. Your whole body feels the faster rotational speed, just as you would feel a spin that was spinning faster than a slower spin. But because you're also going up into the air and defying gravity, LOL, it feels a little different than just spin rotation alone.
Tighter- faster- tornado... That's really the best I can describe it... Hopefully that makes sense... I love you
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PostSubject: Re: Jumps   07.12.06 19:53

:Merci2: Rach and Love2Smile, when did you both started to skate??

and I admire the skaters' balance. I would fall down very quickly after the spins and jumps. how do you do that???? I assume that it has got sth to do with getting used to it
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PostSubject: Re: Jumps   07.12.06 21:02

Thanks, Heidi!

Your description of a "tornado" has been very useful in helping me get the gist of something I'll never be able to experience myself in reality--but my characters will, LOL, and so I will.

Mary C.
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PostSubject: Re: Jumps   08.12.06 5:40

I'm glad my descriptions helped, Mary! hugs

You're welcome, Humming bird. hugs I began taking basic skills lessons when I was 9 years old, and was skating on our lake (sometimes on double blades, LOL!) before that.
Yes, you gradually get used to jump rotation and spin rotation because you begin with the easier elements, then work your way up gradually. First you do jumps that have only a half rotation. Then you work up to full rotation jumps, then doubles, then triples, and (if you are extremely successful Drapeau ) quads.
Spins begin with two foot spins, then one foot, then more complicated ones like sit, camel, and layback spins. Some skaters seem to get more dizzy than others... But they all eventually get better and more used to it.
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PostSubject: Re: Jumps   08.12.06 12:22

Blue Bead wrote:
Thanks to both Rach and Love2 for these answers.

I love the description of being sucked up into a tornado, LOLOLOL.

Rach's comment:
Quote :
I just don't know in most cases when it is appropriate to begin stopping the rotation

Now, that's something which never occured to me---figuring out when to stop the rotation. LOL I'm assuming that you're trying to determine when to land going in the appropriate direction on the ice. When you are making your first attempts are you checking the rotation by your own decision or does your coach tell you when to do it as first?


Mary C.

First off, even the highest jumpers are in the air for well short of a second per jump. Knowing this, and knowing the speed of rotation, (hundreds of rotations per minute I believe but I am tired :p), brian signals cannot travel fast enough to the muscles to accurately percieve rotation rate and react in time. So, the following, which is done in spins, is impossible in jumps :

« Okay, I have to do four turns and come out. *jumps* One... two... three... hmm better start pulling out... four... *land* »

It is much more like

« Okay, pull, keep on the right [I am righty skater]... bbbrrzzzzzztttttt... *SMACK* OH GROUND RIGHT CHECK !!! *shoves right elbow back* -phew- how did I DO that ? DID I do that ?[/i] »

Whilst I admit that this is an exagerration, the idea is the same. You check the rotation based essentially on instinct. And yes, there is a lot of my coach screaming things like OUT !! in the beginning. Until the muscles equate the feeling of force that immediately preceeded said OUT with the correct number of turns and begin to do it themselves.


Incidentally a semi-successful method I use to gauge rotation is the "comparative force method." I cannot feel individual rotations for triples and quads, but I DO know that there is a certain level of pressure when rotating a triple, and that this level is exponentially higher for a quad. So. when I feel the higher pressure, I can assume it is a quad and that I need to open out at the "quad time." However this method really only works for me on toe loop jumps, because my triple toe loop is very loose (relatively) and so the difference is immediately perceptible.

attention : I apologise for what is probably a flagrant flouting of the laws of spelling... No sorry, I'm tired.

Quote :
Some skaters seem to get more dizzy than others...

Also a direct function of the condition of a skater, as I learned yesterday getting...dizzy... and falling on (bad) triple axels after having skipped two meals. Rolling Eyes



Humming Bird, if I remember correctly, I began skating on 17 September 1996.
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PostSubject: Re: Jumps   08.12.06 16:04

Rach, I'm just curious lol! You practise triple axels, quad toe-loops, quad salcows, but you haven't become an olympic champion yet? How did this happen?
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PostSubject: Re: Jumps   08.12.06 18:59

Rach....This is great information you're giving me. WOW!!

What parts of the body are involved in checking the rotation of a jump? You mentioned your right elbow--what other body parts are involved? Is there a sequence of body movements involved in checking or is it just one certain movement applied at the right time that stops the rotation?

Quote :
there is a certain level of pressure when rotating a triple, and that this level is exponentially higher for a quad. So. when I feel the higher pressure, I can assume it is a quad and that I need to open out at the "quad time."

When you're "assuming" what is a quad and feeling that particular pressure is your coach telling you verbally that it is or isn't a quad, and is that part of your learning process to develop the sense of what is or isn't a quad jump? If that's the case, I'm assuming that process is repeated over and over until your mind and body knows that list of sensations is a quad jump...or a triple or whatever. What other types of things would your coach be saying to you as you set up for, take off, fly and land triple and quad jumps (or any jump in particular, lol)? Or are you at the stage where your coach only makes remarks after you've landed the jump?

Mary C.
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PostSubject: Re: Jumps   09.12.06 5:00

Those were great descriptions, Rach! lol! :super:

Aww, girl, yeah, can't skip those meals or as you've found out, you can get dizzy &/or lightheaded!
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PostSubject: Re: Jumps   09.12.06 17:01

Ekaterina wrote:
Rach, I'm just curious lol! You practise triple axels, quad toe-loops, quad salcows, but you haven't become an olympic champion yet? How did this happen?

I haven't but one word :

PROGRAMME

lol! Or rather my difficulties in DOING one. Confidence issues. Also, various injuries ranging from foot fatigue fractures 3 months before the Olympics in Torino to ripping apart multiple muscles in my hip thanks to my clumsiness have contributed there.

But I am working on it! lol! My coach says that I am

Quote :
« Au bout de la réalisation de mes plus grands rêves. »

So, on the precipice of attaining that for which I have been training. It's admittedly scary (much like standing over a real "precipice" with a large sheer drop before you lest you fail), but skating internationally, and winning is what I have been working towards my entire life ! Drapeau :cheergo1:


Right. I shall leave now. blahblah blahblah
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Registration date : 2006-08-15

PostSubject: Re: Jumps   09.12.06 18:44

***** !!!! irritated. I must have had hundreds of words typed and the page reloaded on me, and goodbye essay. *** ! *** !!! *throws empty nestea bottle at wall opposite her in impotent rage, then sets back upon the formidable task of re-writing*


Blue Bead wrote:

What parts of the body are involved in checking the rotation of a jump? You mentioned your right elbow--what other body parts are involved? Is there a sequence of body movements involved in checking or is it just one certain movement applied at the right time that stops the rotation?

The best way to find this out is to boot up a video of Brian, the slow it and examine. Repead ad infinitum. This is what I do! (Seriously, I watch probably at least 5 hours a week of Brian's jumps on video, slowed down, in order to filch his technique. I wish to copy it perfectly; a daunting task, but I live for jumping. Thus my excitement whenever I hear the word "new video" around these parts. Wink)

Here is a by no means exhaustive verbal (voire pedantic) desciption of the process. Note that what I am saying only pertains to those who skate right-handed (rotate to the left). Flip the directions etc for a leftie.

1/ The elbow shove. This shoving of the right elbow is perhaps the ONLY motion in the entire landing process that is performed (semi-)conciously. When a skater tells you that he has "trouble knowing when to check out" it most often means that he doesn't know when to initiate the elbow-shove. It is ideally done about -0,5 to -0,25 rotations before landing. The elbow is shoved approximately backwards, at an angle of about 15 to 30 degrees above the horizonal (horizontal being, I hope for the safety of the imminently grounded skater, parallel with the ice). The arms are crossed in such a way, left over right, to facilitate this manoeuvre. In addition, Brian and I drop the right shoulder slightly in the air, to help to centre our equilibrium points on the right sides of our bodies. While it is necessary for every skater to thus stay "on the right side" (Lest they succumb to the dreaded "retournement" (euh..."step out"? Flip out? turn out?) on the landing.), the shoulder-drop is unique to Brian and myself, for as much as I know.


FIG 1-1 : Picture I made for a different jump explanation ahile ago. Clockwise, from left : The good jump; right shoulder lowered; head turned to the left; funny face; balance [over the right]


FIG 1-2: The position in which one falls can be used as a sort of autopsy to determine the cause of splat. Notice how he is twisted waaay to the left. Doctor, I think it was a fatal retournement.



FIG 1-3 : Awesome picture that has nothing to do with this discourse but is so unique in camera angle that it deserves to be included all the same. hoooouuuuu brianmatrix



2/ The elbow shove, with sufficient force, causes the upper part of the torso to twist to the right, thus opposite the rotation. Using this momentum, the left leg is disengaged from the right [again it is crossed on TOP of the right, over which the "weight" is centred (weight being a rather fluid concept as there is no ground on which to put it)], moving first upward and the hip joint until the femur is (almost) parallel to the ice, and then straightened (I prefer unfolded as a more accurate visual descriptor) whilst it is swung towards the back of the body.

3a/ Simultaneous with the legs coming apart and immediately succeeding the aforementioned elbow-jam (Laughing at the juxtaposition of words. Yes, I "LOL'd." Yes, I am easily amused.), the right arm is straightened so that is is approximately "behind" the skater (by this time the tension of the right elbow has served its purpose is starting off the landing, and thus released. So it usually falls down towards the hip of the skater, as well), and the left is shoved out in "front." The left arm's action serves to further mitigate the rotational intertia (cheers for jargon!) of the jump.


Arms post-swing.

3b/ It is about now when the core muscles truly are important. Despite the actions of the limbs, the mid torso will still "want" to follow the path of the rotation, and it is only through a complete intergration of arms and torso musculature that the intertia is countered. Even with this, no one has succeeded in resisting it completely in triples and quads, as evidenced by the fact that Brian's right arm swings forward towards the corresponding side of his body, and his left swing back to the other side, albeit in a quite controlled manner.

4/ As the arms are swinging, the left leg swings on a wide arc to the back to obtain the "classic" landing position. The momentum of the left leg swinging "drags" the right leg, which is glided on the ice, with it.* A skilled jumper (meaning, Brian !) will also have a very deep bend in the right (skating) knee, to help to convert the kinetic rotational energy into kinetic horizontal-gliding-backward-with-speed energy, much as rolling along the ground upon striking it will help to dissipate the harmful momentum of a vertical drop. This, along with the controlled swinging of the arms, will determine the skater's success in obtaining the much-vaunted "arc" of the landing edge, with a shallower edge showing more control and generally considered to be more aesthetically pleasing. It is HARDER to get a line close to straight. That is why combinations with toe-loops, which necessitate stopping the rotation to the point that the skater actually switched to the INSIDE edge (meaning, he is turning the other way) merites a secondary, violent pull o the entire right side of the body once a landing is achieved, and which combos are so difficult to pull off.

*Actually, the right toepick, at the moment of hitting the ice, remains stationary for an astoundingly long time (this being a relative term, in reality it happens so fast that the eye cannot even percieve it in real time), acting as a conduit whist energy is transferring into the wide-swinging freeleg. It is only after the free leg as nearly completed its arc and has built a considerable momentum that the right toe pick is allow to disengage, and the right skating leg is verily jerked back by the momentum of the left. This technique, mastered, again, by Brian, is how one REALLY gets speed coming out of landings. I wish I could send you a video.

------------------------------------------
Note that all of the above takes place in the span of about half a heartbeat. It is impossible to percieve without a substantially slowed down video. (I generally do my technique-studying in a blazing-fast 2 FPS, and even then I have difficulty perceiving everything in one watching.)

Now that your head has quite nearly exploded and mine as well, I'm going to go to sleep. lol!
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Rach
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PostSubject: Re: Jumps   09.12.06 18:56

Quote :


When you're "assuming" what is a quad and feeling that particular pressure is your coach telling you verbally that it is or isn't a quad : Oui

and is that part of your learning process to develop the sense of what is or isn't a quad jump? Oui

If that's the case, I'm assuming that process is repeated over and over until your mind and body knows that list of sensations is a quad jump...or a triple or whatever. Ouais

What other types of things would your coach be saying to you as you set up for, take off, fly and land triple and quad jumps (or any jump in particular, lol)?Nothing

Or are you at the stage where your coach only makes remarks after you've landed the jump?Bingo

Mary C.

OK, I was just doing that for a bit of irony as compared with my other post. mdr

I will specify that

1/ Every jump as its own particular sensation unique to it. Thus, loop feeling =/= lutz feeling =/= salchow feeling, etc. But within the framework of a single jump, the feeling is consistent for good jumps. Usually. =P

2/ I say nothing because ever since I have been little I've not been able to tolerate a coach shouting ANYTHING during my jump. It makes me lose all consentration and subsequently release my position regardless of what stage of the jump I am in. This is weird. This is not normal. This is a source of great frustration for my coach who has difficultly remaining silent in the best of times. lol!

3/ My coach only makes remarks after I've landed the jump, or planted my nose into the ice, or slammed into the wall, or whatever. This is for the above reason.
You may want to note that I usually interrogate her after every (suspected) good jump, just to be SURE and to get specific feedback as to why it is good. Brian said that he felt compelled to do this with Andreï, whom he did not trust to criticise unless pressed, and that that was one of the things he did not like about Andreï. I, being more anal-retentive than Brian is, feel compelled to make such enquiries even with a perfectionniste coach. Rolling Eyes
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PostSubject: Re: Jumps   09.12.06 19:38

[quote="Rach"][quote]


2/ I say nothing because ever since I have been little I've not been able to tolerate a coach shouting ANYTHING during my jump. It makes me lose all consentration and subsequently release my position regardless of what stage of the jump I am in. This is weird. This is not normal. This is a source of great frustration for my coach who has difficultly remaining silent in the best of times. lol!


I hardly skate at all these days (& never attempted much in the way of jumps) but I understand this - if my teacher started talking to me during my attempts at whatever, I would have to stop & listen to him instead. I put it down to tunnel-visioned focus!!!

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