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Love2Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Jumps   19.12.06 5:21

I personally couldn't imagine and have not seen any technique better than Brian's.... That's just not possible, in my world / opinion... (except, perhaps, on axels..)
Just my two cents worth... But I feel really really REALLY REALLY REAAALLLYYY strongly about this!!!!! Exclamation

Rach describes it best:
Quote :
...the perfection of form that is the jumping of Brian...
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Rach
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PostSubject: Re: Jumps   21.12.06 14:13

Love2Smile wrote:


Rach describes it best:
Quote :
...the perfection of form that is the jumping of Brian...

...said gazing wistfully into the air with a smug expression plastered on face...

lol! lol!


Seriously, as to Japanese technique (and I talk uniquely about the men), I am rather ambivalent. I don't mind Takahashi's jumping, but I find Brian's to be more powerful, explosive, and generally... (this will make no sense if you have never skated yourself) accessible. Aesthetically I prefer his jumps, as well...

As to Oda, he is---what to say?---unique. He truly has what Brian THINKS he (Brian) has : A bizarre technique, but it works [for him]. Oda has amazing knees, and can bend astoundingly low and manage to spring from that angle. This is more or less genetically determined. Certain people simply don't have the natural gifts to do that --- of which I am one. Thus, copying Oda's technique would be nothing if not very difficult. Unnecessarily so. However, this technique --- which is admittedly bizarre --- works well for him. We shall see if it is good for quadruples...

In any rate my dream in life is to have someone watch my skating and go, "OH my God it is Brian Joubert... but in a female body! Uncanny!"

Yes, I shall die happy if someone says that... lol! lol!
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PostSubject: Re: Jumps   21.12.06 14:15

Love2Smile wrote:

Oh I don't know, it'd be really hard to find a technique that would have been worse than mine was on the toe loop!! Rolling Eyes Razz !

...that would be my flip jump. Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes

I had the WORST imaginable technique, in jumping and in general, because frankly I am very mal-coordinated. My single flip, if you can imagine it, had a half-turn cheat on the landing, took off from a blade, and I managed to not be able even to do the entrance three-turn correctly. It was unthinkably awful. Embarassed Razz

Of course now I use a mohawk for the takeoff. :super:
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PostSubject: Re: Jumps   21.12.06 18:52

Quote :
Ofcourse now I use the mohawk for the takeoff.
Oooh, yes, me too- I much prefer the mohawk for the flip takeoff! Surprised
When I re-learned flips from my new coach, it became one of my favorite jumps! But my most favorite now is the salchow. I love you

I agree with what you were saying about Oda! His jumps are in fact amazing too, but a bit different... I do really like his axel takeoff. It will be interesting to see if he can do quads in the future...

Brian's quads just FLY and he comes out with so much speed!! It's amazing! :jumping: When I saw that jump live and in person, I was Shocked :crazy: :sotr_th43: :faint18x19wy5: :cheergo3: allezBrian coeurgif youpi "WOWZA!!!!"

Quote :
...it is Brian Joubert... but in a female body! Uncanny!
Yes, I shall die happy if someone says that lol!

Aww, Rach, I hope you hear someone say that to you one day! I can understand that wish! Wink
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PostSubject: Re: Jumps   21.12.06 19:19

Love2Smile wrote:
nd he comes out with so much speed!! It's amazing! :jumping: When I saw that jump live and in person, I was Shocked :crazy: :sotr_th43: :faint18x19wy5: :cheergo3: allezBrian coeurgif youpi "WOWZA!!!!"


...que tu as de la chance !!!!!!! affraid

Whilst I have never seen it live (just that thought send me into happy happy land -- I cannot sit here and type without smiling), I know that, when I do, someone will have to come and pry me off of the floor. I made a comic to that effect. I can't scan it in but I made a little 5 minute mouse-drawn version of it (as I don't have my drawing tablet right now) :



Left to right, top to bottom

[Rach sees Brian do perfect quad toe]

[...] Hello ?

[...] hey !? uh...

[...][*poke*]

[Rach falls over, unreactive]

WHUD !! Johnny Weir : What's the probleme? Brian (pensive) : Ah, that's quad coma...

[close up of Rach's face] What he said !!
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PostSubject: Re: Jumps   23.12.06 5:28

LOL Rach, great cartoon!! lol!

When I saw Brian's quad, I was unfortunately unable to express my full amazement because the people I was with wouldn't really understand the extent of my excitement.. So with great difficulty I kept in my reactions! I did go into a state of quad coma, though!! It was so surreal!! :crazy: It was especially exciting because he hadn't done one in the warm up, so I was afraid I wouldn't get to see the spectacular Brian Quad that day... But then when he got on the ice for his program and waited for the other skater's marks to be announced, he just stroked around, only used half the ice length to set himself up, and there it was!!! In front of my eyes!! WOOHOO!! :jumping: :incass: youpi
(Sorry- it's just so great to reminisce about it... a great memory!! Very Happy )
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PostSubject: Re: Jumps   23.12.06 16:29

No need to apologise!

In fact I have deduced the existence of both Type I and Type II Quad Coma. Type I being the more common type that you have had the good fortune to experience. Type II is when, you the skater, do this jump... and end up on one edge, gliding backward... and as you are rapidly moving away from the site of impact, you come to realise that it was you who has just completed, and landed, a quad jump. Suddenly, you forget everything, including your programme if you were doing one, and must fight the compulsion to stand there and drool like an idiot while replaying the sensation of the quad over and over again in your mind... side effects include the involontary contraction of the zygomaticus major and orbicularus oculi muscles, otherwise known as an insuppressible smile.

It has been noted that, whilst the effects of Type II Quad Coma fade over time as the subject becomes more acclimated to doing the quad, Type I Quad Coma is a permanent, stable condition in those persons predisposed to it.
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PostSubject: Re: Jumps   24.12.06 4:03

:lach:
Rach, you describe these things so well!!! :super:
Though I have never had the privelage of landing a quad, I do know what you mean about feeling a great jump :crazy: (or REALLY, REALLY fun FUN footwork :crazy: ) , and then "fighting the cumpulsion to just stand there and drool like and idiot" and experienced the "insuppressable smile"! Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy What a great feeling! I can just imagine what it'd be like with a quad!! cheers
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PostSubject: Re: Jumps   25.12.06 15:02

mdr mdr Why, thank you.

A good quad feels like... flying. Yes, that sounds so cliché, and I admit that it is trite. However, it is the single most effective description of the sensation that the centrifugal force gives in such a jump. "Flight" cannot be achieved with triples; only a quadruple will suffice.

D'accord about the footwork as well. It is very fulfilling to master a very difficult sequence.
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Titanilla
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PostSubject: Re: Jumps   20.04.08 13:17

This topic was a bit neglected right now, but now I have a question.

At what age do the skaters learn the triple jumps? Usually? I know that e. g. Mao landed triple axel at 11....
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PostSubject: Re: Jumps   22.04.08 5:09

Hi Titi!
I'd say that completely depends on the skater. They are getting younger and younger these days... But I don't think that landing the triple axel at age 11 is the norm yet. Smile

Rach, what age did you begin learning triples?
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PostSubject: Re: Jumps   22.04.08 21:53

I have new questions for our serious amateur and professional skaters concerning the skate tracings for take offs and landings. How much can one really "read" from those markings on the ice? I've watched numerous skaters at local rinks in my area do their jumps and, then after they finish a particular jump, go back and look at the tracings on the ice. What exactly are they looking for? Are there telltale signs which indicate when something was done wrong or right, as to techniques used? How specific is that information? I'm assuming that it would be possible for the skater to ascertain the position of the take-off blade by the carvings it leaves behind. Does that mark also indicate how much force the skater used to launch himself into the air from either a toe jump or an edge jump? What other peices of information do those tracing give?

On a related issue...would it be possible to determine if a skater is having serious medical problems from the appearances of the ice tracings? I realize this is an off-the-wall question, LOL, but I'm working on a fictional project and trying to figure out what would be believable to readers (particularly serious skating fans, lol) and what wouldn't. If a skater were trying to mask a serious illness would his ice tracings show that he was covering up his real situation?


Mary C.
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PostSubject: Re: Jumps   23.04.08 4:06

Mary, a skater can tell a number of things from the tracings/marks left on the ice.

One can see which edge the skater took off of from the take-off markings, such as in the flip and lutz jumps when it's critical not to "flutz" or "lip."
The skater can also see how the toe pick mark is in relation to the edge mark of a take-off of the toe jumps. In lutzes and flips, one does not want to see the toe mark too wide and inside of the edge mark, because that would mean that you are "picking" too wide and creating a poor take-off.

In the axel jump, some skaters "skid" the take-off, leaving a wide, snowy mark on the ice, while others jump from a clean edge. A skater being taught with a technique in which the clean edge is desired can look back at her marks and know that she is doing something wrong if she sees a skid, or any odd variation thereof.
One time while I was attending a skating clinic, the instructor gave an entire talk on the marks of an axel. She gave points as to what was causing the incorrect take-off marks, and how to fix the problems.

A skater can also tell, by the tracing left from a landing, if their landing was clean or if the jump was cheated.

In salchows and loops, a skater can tell if they are taking off incorrectly if their mark looks like a very large "V" (indicating an elongated forward edge) at the point of take-off.

As far as your second question, concerning a serious illness, I will have to think about that one a bit, since I've never entertained the idea... I'll let you know if I come up with something!
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Titanilla
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PostSubject: Re: Jumps   23.04.08 5:25

Thank you for your interesting answers, Heidi! I find this very very interesting!
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PostSubject: Re: Jumps   23.04.08 16:28

Thanks a bunch for your answers, Heidi! hugs

Now....Am I correct in assuming that deciphering edge tracings is based on, in part, the appearances of a pattern of ice shavings which are thrown out when the blade impacts the ice? For instance, theoretically one could discern a tracing by the left edge from one of the right edge by noticing from which side the ice shavings spray out. Am I going the right direction with my thinking here?LOL Or am I out in left field? LOL

Is there ever any individuality to a particular skater's tracings? For instance, could a skater produce a characteristic tracing that another skater would not? I guess what I'm asking--do all tracings, no matter who does them, appear the same when they are examined? Also, would it be beliveable (to someone knowledgeable about skating techinique) that any skater could have a characteristic pattern of tracings specific only to that skater?

Regarding my question as to determining a skater's medical status via the appearance of his/her ice tracings, I'm trying to determine a credible explanation for something which I would like to take place in one of the novels-to-be. My problem is--it has to be based on something factual, LOL. I can't just pull an explanation out of this air, LOL. Heidi, perhaps one of your students or other skaters who practices at your rink has noticed a significant difference in their ice tracings when they've skated while not feeling well. Would your coaching colleagues have any input on this idea?

Also, what happens to the ice tracings when the skater's legs are wobbly? How does that affect the ice shavings, chips that the blade produces or, for that matter, is something of that nature even discernable in the tracings?

Mary C. ( trying not to appear completly loony with these questions hide8up although I know it appears that way)
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PostSubject: Re: Jumps   04.05.08 21:48

Hi, Mary! Sorry for the delayed response- I have actually managed to lose two lengthy posts so far... So, this time I think I'm going to try my reply in sections instead...

Deciphering the edge tracings is mostly due to the actual grooves that are made in the ice by the edges, and the patterns they make. Shavings are not usually very noticable unless a skid is involved or if the skater was very heavy on the toe-pick while travelling backwards. I checked out my ice shavings from edges the other day- you kind of need a magnifying glass for that, lol.
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PostSubject: Re: Jumps   04.05.08 21:57

There is room for some individuality in tracings and marks. However, it would be very difficult to imagine something that a skater would do that no skater has ever done before. A characteristic mark would most likely be due to a skater's known habit, good or bad. For example, we had a skater in a rink that I frequent who was known for two-footing and cheating her jumps. Because everyone who was familiar with her skating saw her perform jumps in that manner consistently, it became a known habit of that skater by others in the rink.
Other examples could include if a skater was known to skid the take-off of the axel, flutz the lutz, make huge holes in the ice from flips, etc.

Or, the cause of a unique pattern or tracing could be due to techniques. For example- A few years ago, I began practicing the lutz and the axel take-offs from an "S" curve. Since I was the only one in our rink doing it that way, it was kind of unique to me. However there are other skaters that do these jumps this way- Brian does a very small S curve into his lutz. It's just not as commonly seen as the usual ways, which would be a glide on a plain back outside edge going into the axel, or a long left outside edge going into the "lutz corner" to do the lutz.
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PostSubject: Re: Jumps   04.05.08 22:08

A skater with wobbly legs could potentially create wobbly tracings. If a skater was on a curve, outside or inside edge, if she was wobbling she could unintentionally create subcurves within the curve- little hills and valleys within the circle or half circle shaped edge mark.
I've seen this happen when a skater is nervous and trying to perform neat, clean edges. Especially when testing moves in the field, or dance, if the skater is very nervous and/or relatively inexperienced.

When trying to picture what the tracings on the ice would look like, you could imagine that a skater has a marker in a bright color (say, bright purple, lol) attatched to her blade, and that marker is marking the ice where the edges hit the ice as she skates.

lol, no need to feel loony! hugs Your questions are very well thought out.
Talk to you later! :waving20:
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PostSubject: Re: Jumps   06.05.08 13:46

Love2Smile wrote:


Or, the cause of a unique pattern or tracing could be due to techniques. For example- A few years ago, I began practicing the lutz and the axel take-offs from an "S" curve. Since I was the only one in our rink doing it that way, it was kind of unique to me. However there are other skaters that do these jumps this way- Brian does a very small S curve into his lutz. It's just not as commonly seen as the usual ways, which would be a glide on a plain back outside edge going into the axel, or a long left outside edge going into the "lutz corner" to do the lutz.


The "s-curve" as you call it is more common then you think, particularly amongst those doing triple (and quad!?) lutzes. This little curve is done for timing more than anything else--- the lutz is a difficult jump because it is the only one that has no innate timing. The little motion of inside-outside-tap gives a certain timing that this jump lacks. I do it; it helps me to get momentum to swing my right arm back far enough to facilitate the rotation of the jump.

Pity I have not done a lutz in three months; my ankle will not permit that take off however.
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PostSubject: Re: Jumps   20.05.08 16:49

Rach, yes, but what I meant was that, in comparison with others in my rink, it was not so common. I meant it as a comparison. Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Jumps   22.05.08 14:13

Love2Smile wrote:
Hi Titi!
I'd say that completely depends on the skater. They are getting younger and younger these days... But I don't think that landing the triple axel at age 11 is the norm yet. Smile

Rach, what age did you begin learning triples?

Sorry for this really late reply ! I didn't see the question !

I started practising triples when I was 12 or 13. I started really landing them around 14. Smile I only landed a really good, beautiful triple axel recently... and my first quad, I was 16 I believe.
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PostSubject: Re: Jumps   29.11.08 15:36

Hi Friends !!
Could you tell me my stupid question... Embarassed
I 'd like to know what kind of jump Brian did at gala of TEB2008 (on Sandstorm )
I know that he did a triple flip for the first jump, and I'd like to know about the second one.
Was that triple salchow ??? I often confuse brtween salchow and loop...

Thanks in advance !!!!
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PostSubject: Re: Jumps   29.11.08 17:24

As far as I remember (*without checking a video) Brian's second jump was a triple toe - he does a toe walley as his toe loop jump (most skaters seem to do it like this, very few do a cherry flip), this jump's preparation is a bit like a salchow, so its easy to confuse the two!

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PostSubject: Re: Jumps   30.11.08 1:40

always, it's quite difficult for me to find a difference... salchow and toe loop... Embarassed Thanks a lot, Sheena !!
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PostSubject: Re: Jumps   30.11.08 15:30

Interestingly, a salchow is closest to a flip jump.

However superficially, it does look like a toe valley... for Brian, you can distinguish them because the preparation for the toe jump takes up the whole length of the rink.
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